Unfriendly Behavior

[pagannz]

Thank you Jeff

[Röhm1929]

Forums are sometimes oversensitive on this matter of behaviour. Moderators should be more concerned about what a person is (or is not) saying rather than how he is saying it. I would rather see a well-researched post put forward in a robust fashion than a very polite, grammatically correct but otherwise useless flowery monologue.

Moderators should also pay more attention to that particular variety of forum member who knows the forum rules inside out, has certain allies (or simply feels important) and who tailors his posts to ensure that his "adversary" will never be able to push a discussion into useful territory without breaking a rule and risking the closure of what could have become a useful thread.

I often see the comment that moderators do their work for free and that this is a hobby etc. That is perfectly fine and members should be grateful for the efforts of the mods but if moderators aren't being paid for their time then why not "employ" more of them?

[uscob]

The European Court of Human rights decided that a Forum Owner is responsible for insulting Posts of their members and can be sentenced for this if not removed in a specific timeframe. As I understood, there was no timeframe set for this, so it might be good for a new trial on this.

[Jo Rivett]

I have noticed that this forum has some unfriendly personalities that seem to love to insult each other.

That leaves it wide open, and leaves people guessing who is actually being referred to here.
Possibly extend this "general warning" through PM to the actual members you are referring to. That way everyone will be in the clear, and those who are meant, will know that it is them.
Since this thread was started, i have had 5 emails, each one asking me "Jo, are they referring to you here?"
If the answer to this is yes, then the following mail i received this morning makes sense.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->

Are they referring to you?? Go against The 2 Bs and there will be a contract out on you

If a PM is also sent to these few individuals, they will know, in private, that they are being watched.
They then have the opportunity to accept whats been told to them via PM, and continue posting but in a "more Adult way" or, if they dont agree with the PM for any reason, maybe feel like they have been singled out instead of someone else they feel deserved to be, they can simply not login again.
Problem solved, i think. Unless you are 2 steps ahead and have already done this?

[Rick C]

I’ve noted a few threads where folks vociferously pursue a respondent who disagrees with or questions their opinion. Hell, I’ve even participated in a few. I’ve found that these come up in a number of circumstances when people state a personal undefended ‘opinion’ as if it were established fact and others disagree. I recently got into it with a member(s) when, simply out of curiosity about some pin, I asked for corroborating evidence of their opinion. Apparently, this was enough to deem me a “troll”. A few years back, asking for clarity on a member’s opinion got me this “for someone like you to question people like us is nothing more than a joke.” Thus spoke the ‘expert’ not wanting to provide anything more than opinion. Nothing’s changed much from then to now.

We have a quaint idiom here in the states: ‘put up or shut up’. Were folks to insist on the application of such an idiom here, there might be fewer sparing matches. Just my ‘opinion’, of course.

[GiuseppeC]

Speaking only for myself:

I remember a time when people weren't so easily offended by someone else's words - Even children have a saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but...".

It's kind of funny that most of us collect relics from the bloodiest war in history, and yet, we're worried about being called a "bad name", or being offended by someone's words.

Just sayin'.

[Jo Rivett]

It's kind of funny that most of us collect relics from the bloodiest war in history, and yet, we're worried about being called a "bad name", or being offended by someone's words.

Just sayin'.

I believe you are missing the bigger picture.

If enough "names" repeatedly shout that something is good, even though the actual item is never looked at but rather fable only, opinion only, then that item, becomes accepted as genuine regardless.

If enough "names" insult and belittle the same person, using anything any everything except the actual item or research, then that person automatically becomes "wrong" and his research worth nothing. If enough "names" have laughed at him, if enough names have taken the p××s, if enough names are allowed to post insult after insult with no action taken, collectors who are of the same mindset as these "names" will automatically believe what they are being told and are reading - repeatedly. No action taking place = they must be right.

This is the reality of how the hobby has evolved and how it is controlled.

Unfortunately, though, it has gone on for too long. The larger forums today are tainted beyond correction. If you banned a few names, there would be an uproar from their many supporters.

If you banned a few of the no-names, you`d have the same uproar, just in private as the message would be clear, Old Guard stays, new challengers go!

The bad feelings would, and will, never end.

[Br. James]

I'm glad that GiuseppeC began his note of this morning with "Speaking only for myself," for I have been fighting against the social attitude alive in the general public that 'anyone who collects or studies NSDAP history or the Third Reich must also be a Hitlerite himself!' As a collector and a student of this era for over 50 years, I cannot tell you how often I have seen this attitude all around me, which GiuseppeC sums up as "It's kind of funny that most of us collect relics from the bloodiest war in history, and yet, we're worried about being called a "bad name", or being offended by someone's words." The assumption that anyone who collects and/or studies this period in history must obviously be in favor of the political outcome or the processes involved which created that period is akin to someone who studies the American Civil War or the political and social background to the advent of the Confederacy must surely be a member of the Ku Klux Klan! Or that anyone who has an interest in the royal families of Europe must be in favor of establishing that form of monarchy here in the USA!

Speaking only for myself, I have always studied these subjects from the point of view of a historian and not as one who favors the advent of a Fourth or Fifth Reich or as a racist or a supporter of genocide, any more than a student of WWI should be assumed to be in favor of the use of mustard gas or any of the other terrible tools that came to the fore during that awful conflict.

As GuiseppeC phrased it, these are my own personal thoughts and attitudes and I do not apply them to anyone else here. But I do desire a civilized conduct to WAF and find it at least inappropriate for anyone here to extend what would be seen as 'bullying tactics' fraught with disrespect in most any other context.

Br. James

[Jeff V]

Vigorous discussion has always been fine. Sadly, sometimes this vigorous discussion turns to insults. No moderator has any problem with fakes being called out.

What I have been hearing is that regular members and collectors do not want to post in this forum because of an inhospitable nature of some of the members. This is unacceptable. Jo is right, I could have sent PMs to members I thought crossed the line, but I chose a more public post so that everyone knows what is expected of them and we all can start fresh.

There are sub forums on WAF in which there is plenty of discussion without personal insults, so it is definitely possible and there is no reason why this forum cannot be the same way.

Jeff

[Jon Fish]

Jeff, would be good to have this posted on every section of WAF, as the issue is surely not just confined to this board. Also however let it not be forgotten there are many friendly people on WAF, I have made some fantastic friends and contacts due to WAF.

Jeff, I applaud what you are trying to achieve on this section, however to make this work across the WAF in total surely your fellow moderators need to publish the same edict and have the same stance across WAF?
It will stand a better chance of success if there is a widespread understanding and required outcome.
To be honest I have always thought the attitude and behaviour in the 2 political boards to have been more than acceptable, most of the time, and certainly well moderated when posts may have crossed the line. As someone else has mentioned we are all human and all sometimes react without taking time to reflect. It is something I have been working on personally in my professional life and I'd recommend to anyone to draft an e mail or reply then leave it and come back to it in a little while later , even the next day. It's supprising how different your reply will be when you have reflected the bigger picture and can see clearly. Try it guys

[GiuseppeC]

I believe you are missing the bigger picture.

If enough "names" repeatedly shout that something is good, even though the actual item is never looked at but rather fable only, opinion only, then that item, becomes accepted as genuine regardless.

If enough "names" insult and belittle the same person, using anything any everything except the actual item or research, then that person automatically becomes "wrong" and his research worth nothing. If enough "names" have laughed at him, if enough names have taken the p××s, if enough names are allowed to post insult after insult with no action taken, collectors who are of the same mindset as these "names" will automatically believe what they are being told and are reading - repeatedly. No action taking place = they must be right.

This is the reality of how the hobby has evolved and how it is controlled.

Unfortunately, though, it has gone on for too long. The larger forums today are tainted beyond correction. If you banned a few names, there would be an uproar from their many supporters.

If you banned a few of the no-names, you`d have the same uproar, just in private as the message would be clear, Old Guard stays, new challengers go!

The bad feelings would, and will, never end.

I'm not missing a thing- In fact, I agree with you 100%. We have bona fide 'subject matter experts' who:

a) Know the products (but may not know the history)
b) Know the history (but may not know the product)
c) Know a little of both

But true rarity, in this hobby, is:

d) The person who knows a lot, but has enough humility to admit that they don't know everything.

I collect tinnies - Worst-case, I eat $50; Oh Well.

"City Hall" is NOT worth fighting - It's an establishment that's 70 years in the making, with 'faking' happening just after the war ended.

The "Status Quo" succeeded in "killing the Golden Goose":

Affordability, lack of interest, and fraud have/will affected the market for militaria. That's not even counting what's been sitting behind the closed-doors of people in their 70's and 80's.

People can "ban" me, but it won't change the outcome. Ask any of the 2014 MAX Show attendants what sales looked like - A bunch of older guys looking, but relatively few buyers.

[GiuseppeC]

I'm glad that GiuseppeC began his note of this morning with "Speaking only for myself," for I have been fighting against the social attitude alive in the general public that 'anyone who collects or studies NSDAP history or the Third Reich must also be a Hitlerite himself!' As a collector and a student of this era for over 50 years, I cannot tell you how often I have seen this attitude all around me, which GiuseppeC sums up as "It's kind of funny that most of us collect relics from the bloodiest war in history, and yet, we're worried about being called a "bad name", or being offended by someone's words." The assumption that anyone who collects and/or studies this period in history must obviously be in favor of the political outcome or the processes involved which created that period is akin to someone who studies the American Civil War or the political and social background to the advent of the Confederacy must surely be a member of the Ku Klux Klan! Or that anyone who has an interest in the royal families of Europe must be in favor of establishing that form of monarchy here in the USA!

Speaking only for myself, I have always studied these subjects from the point of view of a historian and not as one who favors the advent of a Fourth or Fifth Reich or as a racist or a supporter of genocide, any more than a student of WWI should be assumed to be in favor of the use of mustard gas or any of the other terrible tools that came to the fore during that awful conflict.

As GuiseppeC phrased it, these are my own personal thoughts and attitudes and I do not apply them to anyone else here. But I do desire a civilized conduct to WAF and find it at least inappropriate for anyone here to extend what would be seen as 'bullying tactics' fraught with disrespect in most any other context.

Br. James

@ Br. James:

I'm not too concerned with the social attitude of the general public - Pawel Kuczynski sums-up my thoughts in painting#2, found here:

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/05/...ong-world.html

This is why it's all pretty laughable.

Just collect, and enjoy.

Cheers!