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**JoeW** · 05-21-2015, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by mloppkit View Post

As i have said previously i think these are very nice.......................................

These crosses are 'Heavy' versions as opposed to the lightweight Deumer version. There are heavy versions of both the 10 & 15 year crosses so are we to believe that there was no heavy version of the 25 year??? I can't believe that only one maker (Deumer) made these crosses- and if they did- why is it only a light version, where is the heavy Deumer version- or any other ? They already had the heavy version die from the 15 year version so why not produce a heavy version of the same for 25 years. It is very easy to condemn all Souval products as having been produced after 1945 but this is emotive and I believe that proof exists that Souval was indeed a producer of war time medals and badges (although few seem to acknowledge this fact). Maybe the evidence is not definitive yet either way but I have certainly seen some very believable examples- ie Stan's version that Bill Sheay swore was an original vet return.

I am sorry to display my ignorance on the subject of makers of the various Long Service party awards, but can I presume that there were light-weight versions of the 10 and 15 year awards? Did Deumer produce a light-weight 15 from the same equipment used to make the 25? If so, then I would agree that there would seem to be no reason for Souval not to have produced a heavy 25.

On the other hand, the 25 would not have been issued until perhaps three years after the first awards. It was an exceptionally rare award by issue number and would they have been produced in quantity or only on order with an approved application? Perhaps the RZM restricted the production to one maker because of the exceptional nature of the award to maintain level of quality? Of course these are only hypotheticals.

**Stan** · 05-22-2015, 01:42 AM

Joe,

Deumer made very thin 10 year and 25 year crosses but I too am still looking for a thin 15 year cross by this maker.

Hopefully someone can post an example.

Stan

**mloppkit** · 05-31-2015, 03:23 AM

Hi Stan, Tom,

Here is a '25' year NSDAP cross with description on the Weitze site, it has the short stem 'f' and clearly shows the die flaw on the left wing. Price 3500 Euro.

NSDAP Dienstauszeichnung in Gold
schwere Ausführung. Buntmetall vergoldet, weiß emailliert, die Medaillons auf der Vorder- und Rückseite separat aufgesetzt (wie bei der Dienstauszeichnung in Silber). Komplett am original vernähten Band. Zustand 2. Seltene Variante.

NSDAP Long Service Award in Gold
heavy version . Non-ferrous metals , gold-plated , white enamel , the medallion on the front and rear mounted separately (as with the Long Service Award in silver ) . Complete the original stitched band . Condition 2. Rare variant

Attached Files

**Seigfried** · 05-31-2015, 03:38 AM

I thought that I should post these pics of the 25 yr cross that I opened the thread about for posterity, before they are deleted. It was sold on 22 May 2015 for £1500.00.

Attached Files

**Seigfried** · 05-31-2015, 03:40 AM

What does it say when the cross went for only £1500.00 after several reductions? Presumably the buyer is satisfied with it's authenticity and did his research. I note that the new owner has not posted any better pics of the cross which would be helpful.

Attached Files

**Terry OToole** · 05-31-2015, 05:09 PM

buyer is very happy , should have bought it when you could mate , price reflects needed quick sale , and not doubts on its authenticity

**Seigfried** · 05-31-2015, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Terry OToole View Post

buyer is very happy , should have bought it when you could mate , price reflects needed quick sale , and not doubts on its authenticity

I did not buy it as I did not believe it to be of genuine Third Reich period manufacture, hence this thread. If he is happy then good for him. It would have been gone in a flash at the original price if there were no doubts, hence my initial interest. Following some extensive and hurried research I was not convinced I'm afraid.

**Seigfried** · 05-31-2015, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Seigfried View Post

What does it say when the cross went for only £1500.00

Actually it went for $1500.00 according to the sales thread, not £1500.00 - my mistake.

**mloppkit** · 05-31-2015, 10:27 PM

Thanks for posting further pics, For what it's worth, both of these medals seem to be very well made and of high quality. If Charlie Snyder or Thomas Wittmann was selling this one then I'd be very wary but with Helmut Weitze, Bill Sheay and Kai Winkler all having sold nice examples of this version as vet returns, I would feel pretty reassured,

Cheers

**Seigfried** · 06-01-2015, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by mloppkit View Post

Thanks for posting further pics, For what it's worth, both of these medals seem to be very well made and of high quality. If Charlie Snyder or Thomas Wittmann was selling this one then I'd be very wary but with Helmut Weitze, Bill Sheay and Kai Winkler all having sold nice examples of this version as vet returns, I would feel pretty reassured,

Cheers

It is a Souval and that very fact casts doubt upon it - no matter who sells it. Secondly, dealers attributing these as 'vet returns' are just using sales pitch, you cannot prove it.

**Thomas Durante** · 06-01-2015, 05:37 AM

Hi guys,

Mloppkit, thanks for posting Weitze's example, and I tend to agree with you that the quality is nice and seems to be on par with wartime-made examples.

Seigfried, thanks for posting the pics into this thread so they aren't lost in the future. Like you, I too feel that the jury is still out on these flawed Souvals. We know Souval was a large postwar producer and for that they should get an extra level of scrutiny. There is no provenance for these flawed Souvals as well, so that casts a shadow over them IMO.

Tom

**RonR** · 06-01-2015, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Joe,

Deumer made very thin 10 year and 25 year crosses but I too am still looking for a thin 15 year cross by this maker.

Hopefully someone can post an example.

Stan

Stan,

This one was just posted and identified as a Deumer.

It is 5cm thick..........

...................

Attached Files

**Seigfried** · 06-01-2015, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by RonR View Post

It is 5cm thick..........
...................

Do you mean 5cm wide - as opposed to the thickness or depth, which should not be more than several mm?

**Darrell** · 06-01-2015, 02:25 PM

I'm assuming he meant 5mm. Americans and Metric don't mix

**RonR** · 06-01-2015, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Darrell View Post

I'm assuming he meant 5mm. Americans and Metric don't mix

You got that right!

Best regards,

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25 year NSDAP on Estand

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