25 year NSDAP on Estand

[Seigfried]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=802090

Thoughts please?

I know that the 'CROSSED SWORDS' device is not original to the award by the way.

[der-hase-fee]

I wouldn't want it.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi John,

I would want to see straight on shots of the obverse and reverse of the cross itself.

Its a Souval, so its really hard to know what is wartime versus postwar with this maker because they certainly continued production for decades after the war.

If you look at Souval's 15 year crosses, they are better quality in terms of detail and finish to the cross we see here. The 25 year crosses are supposidly made from the same die as the 15s, so the quality should be the same if this is a wartime cross IMO. From what I can tell, this cross has more in common with Souval's postwar crosses than their wartime crosses and that makes me feel this is a postwar-made cross.

Tom

[Seigfried]

I wouldn't want it.

Can you be more specific!?

[Seigfried]

Its a Souval, so its really hard to know what is wartime versus postwar with this maker because they certainly continued production for decades after the war.

Hi Tom,
Many thanks, I'd guessed that it is a Souval, with all the caveats that you mention.

Cheers,

John

[Richard]

I would want to see a close up of the obverse to see if it has the flaw in the eagle's wing (though I'm unsure if this is attributable to Souval crosses). From the pictures it appears the eagle may not be very detailed. Tom, is the detail the only distinguishing characteristic of a pre and post war Souval?
Richard V

[Thomas Durante]

Tom, is the detail the only distinguishing characteristic of a pre and post war Souval?

Hi Richard,

Souval eagle's aren't very detailed, even on the wartime ones so I don't really use this as a determining factor. However, the wartime Souval crosses (15 year IMO) do not appear to have the wing flaw, have a more detailed wreath design and the finish/enamelling is very well done IMO. In comparison, these 25s always seem to have eagles with the wing flaw, poorly cut out wreaths and poor enameling which leads me to believe that Souval "possibly" only made the 15 years during the war and that the 25s are all postwar. As I research more, I am trying to find definite, 25 year Souval crosses with solid provenance but have yet to find one.

Tom

[der-hase-fee]

Can you be more specific!?

I do not care for the generally uneven font ("Volk" almost looks to be in bold) with the short "f". Weak details all over the badge.

[Richard]

Interesting observation Tom. Here is a thread which leans towards the ones with the die flaw being original with several collectors providing some modicum of provenance. Did this previous line of thinking flip at some point?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=NSDAP+25


There is even more discussion in this thread indicating the possibility of the flawed wing existing as both pre war originals and post war reproductions.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ear+nsdap+gold

All in all this is getting to be a quite confusing area for a medal that isn't cheap.
Richard V

[der-hase-fee]

Thanks for the links, Richard V !

Then all is good with Terry's badge - it comes with a certificate from Niemann !

But compare to Stan's !

[Seigfried]

I do not care for the generally uneven font ("Volk" almost looks to be in bold) with the short "f". Weak details all over the badge.

Thanks, it is mainly the short 'F' that concerns me. All the generally accepted crosses Inc 15s have an F with a long stick. Terry s is unmarked.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Richard, thanks for the linked threads, I hadn't seen the one from 2006 before

I have to say that the provenance from Dodkin's on Stan's example seems very good to me. I also like the look of his cross (with wing flaw), and especially the look of the 15 yr Souval he posts toward the end of that thread that also appears to have the wing flaw. Especially on that cross, the base metal, finish and enameling all look very good and "wartime compatible" IMO. All this would suggest that Souval crosses started to get the wing flaw during the war.

Ofcourse, with Souval its hard to know for sure because we know of their postwar activities and they certainly started earlier. But if we take Dodkin's word that he picked that particular cross up in 1952 and we assume that Souval wasn't making good reproductions at that time then we must conclude that at least some wing-flawed Souval crosses are wartime.

Tom

[Stan]

Guys, just a quick update.

I had a conversation with Steve Wolfe about these heavy 25-Yr Crosses several year ago and he confirmed the doubts in collectors minds about them and mentioned the only types found on ribbon bars were marked "19".

So I decided to sell my cross and replace it with a text-book "19" Deumer piece.

I realise this doesn't help the discussion very much and I still have an open mind about these crosses.

Stan

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for the update and passing on Steve Wolfe's opinion, certainly something to consider. But here is a big flaw in Steve's opinion, it only takes 1 ribbon bar to come along with a non-Deumer cross on it to blow his theory. Its really impossible to say something like this unless you have seen every ribbon bar out there with good provenance. Especially when it comes to such a rare item like a 25 Year NSDAP cross, they certainly are few and far between. I don't know how you can make such a sweeping statement like this without tangible, documented evidence to support that only one maker (Deumer) made the 25 year.

For instance, take Ron R's example seen here. Its not a Deumer, its an Unknown Maker #2 (my nomenclature) and is identical to their 15 Year crosses. I have a hard time believing this cross is a postwar fake. Not only is the die identical to the 15 year crosses, but the gilded finish looks correct, enamelling is good quality, ribbon looks correct and the way it is finished/produced looks right IMO.

Now where does that leave us with Souval? As mentioned earlier, I like the quality of their 15 year crosses, the enameling looks right and even the level of detail is good, especially the non-wingflaw ones. So I can believe they made the 15 year, but did they make the 25 year? I am skeptical, especially the ones with the wingflaw because the die used appears different than their 15s, the trimming is different than on their 15s and the quality seems lower than on their 15s. And given their well-known postwar activities, I can certainly believe that all Souval crosses are postwar fakes. Atleast the ones with the wing flaw, and maybe that is the dividing line between wartime and postwar Souvals? If we can believe the Ailsby and Dodkins story, the wingflawed 25 was picked up in 1952. Even if we take this story at face value, that is still 7 years after the war for this cross to be produced. Souval was definitely making fakes by 1952, and by most accounts so was S&L and others, so this casts a long shadow on these Souval 25s IMO.

Deumer's made the 25, and I can also believe that at least one other maker did too (whoever UK#2 was), although we need some vet provenance to prove this for sure. So unless we find out UK#2 was made by S&L , then I can believe that at least 2 makers were involved in 25 year production during the war IMO.

Tom

[mloppkit]

As i have said previously i think these are very nice.
I have no problem with these being (very late) war-time Souval long service crosses (also known as the 'Dodkins' cross- after the collector that had collected one in 1952)- the characteristic die flaw on the left wing, the short-stick 'f' on the reverse, this cross is different to the many post war versions- check out the versions that are very similar to these but slightly smaller and with weaker details (as per previous discussions on the WAF)- is it not possible that these Souval's may have been copied post war?

These crosses are 'Heavy' versions as opposed to the lightweight Deumer version. There are heavy versions of both the 10 & 15 year crosses so are we to believe that there was no heavy version of the 25 year??? I can't believe that only one maker (Deumer) made these crosses- and if they did- why is it only a light version, where is the heavy Deumer version- or any other ? They already had the heavy version die from the 15 year version so why not produce a heavy version of the same for 25 years. It is very easy to condemn all Souval products as having been produced after 1945 but this is emotive and I believe that proof exists that Souval was indeed a producer of war time medals and badges (although few seem to acknowledge this fact). Maybe the evidence is not definitive yet either way but I have certainly seen some very believable examples- ie Stan's version that Bill Sheay swore was an original vet return.