Please your opinion for those pins.
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??????? I am comfused by RZM and ges.gesch marked .<!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
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Don't know about the others but the Ludendorff is a fake. Note the pin attachment and I don't think the pin was ever really produced. I have one just like it lying in my fake bowl.Tom NowlingComment
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The old nsdapbadges.com site did list the "ludendorf" badge. One was shown with an M1/129 mark and was described as original although the same page does state "...there is some debate as to whether sympathiser/commemorative issue badges should bear the RZM and/or M1 marks".
Putting that aside, I am not keen on the pin of the one shown above....and the pin base does not seem to match the outline on the back of the badge itself.
The Deutschland Erwache badge looks ok to me.Comment
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IMHO The Deutchland Erwache raises a red flag. I don't believe this pin should have an RZM state sponsored mark. Secondly, M1 129 is the most highly used number by counterfieters. Some "experts" suggest steering clear of this maker completely. Wait for Mike, Don, and James to view and see what they say but for me I would say no-no and sleep well and not yes-yes and have doubt and pollute your collection. Just my humble, less than perfect opinion. I hope I have helped. Cheers RobertOriginally posted by ironcross ??????? I am comfused by RZM and ges.gesch marked .<!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
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A some of you here know, I'm very weak on my knowlegde of party type pins. I'm personally very cautious of any of the "early" design pins which are RZM marked, they may have continued in production once the mark came in but I'm not overly convinced IMHO.Originally posted by burgerhausIMHO The Deutchland Erwache raises a red flag. I don't believe this pin should have an RZM state sponsored mark. Secondly, M1 129 is the most highly used number by counterfieters. Some "experts" suggest steering clear of this maker completely. Wait for Mike, Don, and James to view and see what they say but for me I would say no-no and sleep well and not yes-yes and have doubt and pollute your collection. Just my humble, less than perfect opinion. I hope I have helped. Cheers Robert
I like the KfdK (Kampfbund füf deutsche Kultur) pin, I can't see anything wrong with it myself.
Cheers
DonComment
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I think the above comments are right - the RZM'ed badges are fakes (M1/129 is almost always fake, and these early badges were before the RZM came in). The KfdK badge looks fine.Originally posted by Don ScowenComment
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I agree that most M1/129 are almost always fakes, but not the one posted, the fakes have the spiked "M" , Real M1/129 badges have an "M" that is square and the 129 is different also. The few 129's that I believe to be originals also have the round pin clasp like the one posted. Face it there should be an original 129 showing up from time to time. I was one of Frobler's students also.Originally posted by sjl
thanks jamieComment
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I agree with Jamie on this....i know that Stephen and i have agreed to disagree on the RZM marks on what i like to call these commemorative pins....though they say 1933 on them i believe that they were issued in the post RZM time frame...1936....129 marks deserve to be cautious about yet as Jamie states there were originals of these.....i guess it is a matter of personal preference and what you care to believe in...
i like all three
mike
http://enamelsofwar.homestead.com
Originally posted by jscottComment
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Mike and Jamie are right - we've agreed to disagree on these pesky RZM-marked "sympathizer" badges. I have never seen one authorized in any of the RZM "Mitteilungsblatts" - which lists all RZM-approved badges and designs.
In particular, the M1/129 license was issued just before the first M1 license was issued to the first Austrian firm (M1/130), making the issue date presumably shortly before the annexation in 1938 - pretty late for one of these badges. In fact, the M1/129 number was issued as part of a lot from M1/129 to M1/146 to a group of primarily Sudetenland companies, probably placing the issue date after the Czech annexation on October 1, 1938. That also places it too late for 1936.
I know of no source that suggests these were made any time after 1933. Most texts speak of them as being electioneering badges for the many 1933 general elections. In the Nazi calendar, 1936 has no particular significance or connection to these badges. I'd love to know where this idea started and if there is any authority for it.
And of course, saying one fake doesn't look like another doesn't mean one has to be original. It may not look like the other M1/129, but that doesn't guarantee originality. I'd be interested to see a M1/129 on some other known non-controversial, genuine badge for a real comparison. I've never come across one.
The Ludendorff badge appears to have been made by the same people who brought you the fake M1/4 "SS Civil Enamel badge". The back is the same die. If these two badges were from the same source, I think you might also have your answer - guilt by association.Comment
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And of course, saying one fake doesn't look like another doesn't mean one has to be original. It may not look like the other M1/129, but that doesn't guarantee originality. I'd be interested to see a M1/129 on some other known non-controversial, genuine badge for a real comparison. I've never come across one.
Stephen have you ever run across anything marked M1/129 ? I've been looking for a comparison myself and keep coming up empty handed. I'm afraid the 129 has such a bad rap we may never see any other examples or maybe they just don't exist.
129's With the spiked "M" in the M1/129 can be found everywhere, I'm sure someone was punching out a few new ones today. I've only seen (5) M1/129 badges that have an "M" that is square (not exactly square, but very square), this alone tells me something, original - maybe not, but worth researching. I don't question your facts or logics at all and understand completely where you're coming from. But for me there are too many unknowns in this hobby where logic doesn't always fit.
By the way I've really have enjoyed your RZM Handbook and highly recommend it to any collector.
Happy New Year
jamie
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Hi Jamie,
You're quite right - there are some things that just refuse to fit, and they are what make the hobby fun / aggravating. An RZM example that drives me nuts are the RZM 121 & 124 SS daggers with the very non-standard RZM logo. I've finally come around to believing them genuine, but it was a mental struggle on my part to accept it.
I've never seen what I consider an unimpeachable M1/129 badge. A simple party pin would be nice. I saw your post (so far unanswered) in the other forum for examples of real M1/129 pins. I hope someone comes up with one. It makes me wonder what Seiler & Comp. of Geldern was up to. It seems odd that they would apply for an RZM M1 license and not use it. The same company had an M9 license (M9/134) for making tinnies. It appears to have been issued to them at an earlier date. Maybe they applied thinking they would get into badges later and never did. Just one of many mysteries in this field.
As for the different "M" from this badge to the more common M1/129 fake party pin, I appreciate your point. It is different. I'd love to know if this difference is significant.
Thanks for the kind comments about my RZM guide. I'm glad you found it enjoyable. It's not the "be all and end all", but hopefully it's a helpful start in the field.
By the way, I'll be posting a complete listing of all known RZM "M" codes on my RZM website later this week as a PDF for anyone who wants it. I'll post a notice here when it's ready.
Happy New Years to all.Comment
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