SA DRL sports badge info needed

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Guys I'm trying to find out some info on my SA and DRL sports badges. I would like to know if they are early or late made pieces. Could you guys give me a link or a site I can find that info out? Tried doing a search on here and I'm not having any luck. Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

[munsongary]

SA DRL information

I have collected DRA, DRL, SA and DSB badges for some time and have yet to find anything definitive and compiled. Based on the amount of information that is out there, it would be excellent for someone with the expertise "chops" to publish a book on the subject.

What I believe, from purchases made and research, is that (despite what some have published) the following is accurate:

DRA existing in the post WW1, pre-WW2 NSDAP period. It was issued in 3 grades: gold, silver and bronze.
DSL (with swastika) existed from roughly 1933 through 1945. It was issued in 3 grades: gold, silver and bronze - with an additional award for War Wounded.

DSL (without swastika) occurred from June 1945 through 1949. These badges were all produced without any identification/maker's marks on the back. If a DSL has marking on the back, it is either a post-war strike, or modified by the owner to remove the swastika. This was a reissue for those that had been awarded the badge during the war - thus it was manufactured in gold, silver and bronze - and also War Wounded.

DSB existed from late 1949 through sometime in the 2005, when it merged with the NOK. This was issued in gold, silver and bronze.

SA sports badges were manufactured in 3 grades, and 3 separate issues. In addition, the bronze SA sports badge also had a late war RZM manufacture. The SA also issued an award for war wounded, that met qualifications. This award was issued in one grade only - in a bronze wash (despite some individuals selling awards that are claimed to be "silver" or "gold").

Hope this helps!

[speedytop]

Hi munsongary,

welcome to this forum!


Hi all,

correct is:

1. DRA 1913/1914 and from 1919 up to 1934/1935
- different makers like Marcus, Mack & Purbs, Lauer, Wernstein
- different markings for the design protection
2. DRL (with swastika) 1934/1935 up to 1944
- different makers like Wernstein, Lauer, Kohm, Wagner, Petz & Lorenz, Hensler, Müller, Schneider
- additional a badge for disabled persons (not only for war wounded) since 1942 up to 1945
3. DSB 1952 up to 2006
4. DOSB since 2007

5. DRL (without swastika) are not official and they are always postwar made, end of the 40s/beginning 50s?
munsongary, do you have sources for your statement "occurred from June 1945 through 1949"?
6. Additional some sports badged existed between 1948 and 1952, like SLA (up to 2012), LSA, DSA and BSA.

Uwe

[munsongary]

Hi Uwe:

Thank you for that update - and there are a couple of things I needed to amend.

DRA was, actually, DRAfOS and existed prior to 1900 and up to 1917 when it was renamed Deutsche Reichsausschuss fur Leibesubungen (DRL). This is why, I believe, some authorities state that there were a number of pre-WW2 DRL badges produced with no Nazi symbolism attached. To date, though, I have not seen one award with sufficient provenance to make me want to put it in my collection.

DRL was incorporated into the NSDAP in early 30's (maybe from '33 forward, but I cannot find exact dates on this). Everything that was under the NSDAP umbrella became outlawed after May 1945 (this included DSL, SA, SS, NSKK, DLV, HJ, BDM, etc etc etc). Thus, all awards that were worn without swastikas - or manufactured without swastikas, that were not absolute military awards, were unofficial and unauthorized.

Regarding my statement - this is why I would prefer that someone write a book on this. I began traveling in German and Austria in 1974 - and eventually went to the University of Vienna. I was able to meet a large number of German and Austrian WW2 veterans. A number of them wore awards from WW2 - and they (typically) maintained their original, unaltered version for unauthorized small group meetings - and obtained a second, denazified version for public events.

These men were all very proud of their sports awards - whether they were SA or DRL or whatever. The men that had versions without swastikas told me they were either altered, or purchased, prior to 1950. While it is anecdotal, and unresearched, and a small sample size, I was unable to find one that had been altered/produced after 1950.

Thanks,
Gary

[speedytop]

Hi Gary,

DRA was, actually, DRAfOS and existed prior to 1900 and up to 1917 when it was renamed Deutsche Reichsausschuss fur Leibesubungen (DRL). This is why, I believe, some authorities state that there were a number of pre-WW2 DRL badges produced with no Nazi symbolism attached. To date, though, I have not seen one award with sufficient provenance to make me want to put it in my collection.

I do not understand that.
DRA was always, from 1913 up to 1934, the abbreviation from "Deutscher ReichsAusschuß", first combined with ... für Olympische Spiele, since 1917 combined with ... für Leibesübungen.
DRL started in 1934, first only in the new name of the organization "Deutscher Reichsbund für Leibesübungen", the badge still with DRA, the new name of the sports badge was "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen".
Since 1935 we can find the new badge DRL (based on Deutscher Reichsbund für Leibesübungen), the badge added with a swastika.
In 1937 was the change from "Deutsches Reichs-Sportabzeichen" to "Reichssportabzeichen", and DRL stands now for "Deutsche Reichsauszeichnung für Leibesübungen".

There is no place for a DRL sports badge before 1935.

I was unable to find one that had been altered/produced after 1950

How do you know, that it was produced "prior to 1950"?
These badges DRL without swastika had been sold for example, as "Reichs-Sportabzeichen", in the early 60s by Sedlatzek, per badge 3,50 DM through 4,50 DM.
On ebay you can find some DRL without swastika (there are 3 different versions) in a quality and condition, that they could be made yesterday!

Uwe

[peterm]

And in addition:
I never saw an Austrian soldier with a "DRA" badge, but it maybe was possible for the members of the so called "Austrian Legion". Personally I doubt it.
Austria (before 1938 and after 1945 up to now) had (and has) the ÖSTA (Österreichisches Sport-und Turnabzeichen) for both soldiers and civilians.
Veterans wearing their DRL-badges I have seen a lot, some with the originals, others with denazified badges.

Kind regards, Peter

[munsongary]

Hi Uwe:

First - where I obtained my information. As I initially stated, I have been researching this topic for over 30 years. I have not obtained information from one source - or two - or 20; but from over 30 years work (some in the field). However, a good starting point, for anyone, would be the DOSB website.

Second - I apologize that you do not understand. I could translate, but my German is very rusty. The last time I actually used it was when I attending the University of Vienna in 1979. However, perhaps my explanation was inadequate.

The name that comprises DRAfOS was changed in 1917 to DRL - as an Olympics related protest by the German sports organization. While the components that make up the acronym are different than the 1930's DRL, this still has caused confusion among collectors. I have seen posts, in the past, on this Forum, that alluded to non-swastika DRL badges being PREDECESSORS to the Nazi DRL badges. As I stated - I never agreed with this and have never seen any proof that that occurred.

Third - you stated "How do you know, that it was produced "prior to 1950"?" Your question is spot-on and very germane. It is precisely why I stated that a comprehensive scholarly work needs to be constructed for German sports badges from 1896, through present day. Also as I stated, my information is "word of mouth" - anecdotal.

In 1974 I began the first of many visits to Germany and Austria. I found small pubs in the towns that I traveled (such as St. Radegund) where veterans gathered in the evening. It was difficult to get them to speak with me, but over time they loosened up (it helped that I had a military background, I believe). They would not discuss many of their awards, but would discuss (and show me) their sports awards. It is primarily, for this reason, that I slanted a portion of my collection to these awards. Every veteran that spoke with me stated that the altered/non-swastika sports award that they possessed was altered/obtained prior to 1950. I do not know that this is some kind of significant date - only someone who has the time to fully research the matter could make that determination. I can only tell you what I was told by the veterans.

You stated "(the awards) could be made yesterday!). I am sure a majority of what you are looking at, on eBay, was manufactured yesterday. I just advised a lady to not list an APB, and a Destroyer badge, on eBay as they were clearly repros. Had I not advised this, they would be there now - for all to see!!! However, I know the awards I saw, in the period 1974 - 1979, were made before this time.

Hope that helps.

Gary

[munsongary]

Hi Peter:

That some of the veterans I spoke with were Austrians is an assumption, on my part. I never asked any of them about their citizenship. I know that we were in a pub in Austria, so my guess was that some of the men were Austrian.

Kindest regards,
Gary

[RonR]

Don't know the vintage of this one, but acquired as a curiosity in the early 80's


................

[speedytop]

Hi Gary,

... that you do not understand.

It is not the language, it is your interpretation.

The "Deutscher Reichsausschuß für Leibesübungen" never had the abbreviation DRL, it was always and at any time the DRA.

In this forum you can find some older threads, where I showed the members here, that sports badges DRL without swastika could not be pre 1945.

Please see for example:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=178399

or on GMIC:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=14509


Hi Ron,

that is variant 3, in my opinion the last version:



With all 3 variants you can find different needles.

Uwe

[munsongary]

Hi Uwe:

You are "preaching to the choir" regarding any possibility that there was a pre-WW2 DRL badge without swastika. On that we completely agree - and I stated this in my original post.

Again, I believe you misunderstand what I am trying to convey. This is the "official" DOSB "white paper" on the history of German sports, the DRAfOS, DRA, DRL, DSB: http://www.dosb.de/fileadmin/fm-dosb...eutschland.pdf. The DOSB outlines the name change in 1917 - states that the organization is "still" DRA after the name change, despite the fact that it would appear the acronym would be "DRL".

None of this seems to matter to a group of collectors, however. The fact that the organization changed its name to Deutschen Reichsausschuss für Leibesübungen, which these collectors have assumed would be shortened to "DRL" (and not "DRA") has prompted them to assume there were also awards that were issued as DRL-no swastika during the inter-war period.

As I have stated in my original post, I do not agree with this. However, the individual that started this thread was asking for information relative to DRL and SA badges. Short of being able to provide a reference book, which does not exist, I was attempting to provide what information I have.

There are a great number of DRL badges without swastikas on the market. Go to an OVMS or MAX show and you will see hundreds. You will also encounter a number of "long time" dealers who will swear they are pre-WW2 manufacture. Some are - and have been de-Nazified (I have a Silver and Bronze that have been so altered - and both are WW2 manufacture and issue). Were a novice to encounter these, and not know their background, he/she might make an unwise - or costly - purchase.

Again, hope this explains my original post.

Thanks,
Gary

[munsongary]

Apologies for the poor quality pics, but some examples. First group is silver and bronze DSLs, WW2 issue, that were altered after the war.

Second group is comprised of a DSL War Wounded, war issue - and an after war make without swastika. Same owner had both, but not sure of the exact date of purchase of the after-war DRL.
[IMG]denaz1 by munsongary69, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]denaz2 by munsongary69, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]drlww1 by munsongary69, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]drlww2 by munsongary69, on Flickr[/IMG]

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Thanks guys for getting back to me on my questions. I was starting to wonder if anyone was willing to help with some info. Now how about some info on the SA badge. Some general info would be good to start as I can't find much on the web. I understand they where made in three different periods. Is that correct? And do each one have a way of being identified by there markings? I understood that all of the numbered piece where the early issued pieces. Those that were numbered matched up to the paperwork that went along with the award. Am I on the rite path here or totally lost with what I understood to this point?

[speedytop]

Hi blitzkrieg gsd,

DRL:
There is no clear timeline. The first makers had been Wernstein and Lauer, because they were the last makers of the DRA. Petz & Lorenz made them early, but only a short time. The other makers are without a kown timeline. Late pieces were produced of a zinc alloy.
DRL with swastika without a maker mark or a protection hint are made postwar, based on my personal opinion and experience.
DRL without swastika are always made postwar, in a not known timeframe (denazified pieces are not really of interest here).

SA:
Please see here:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...rabzeichen.htm
(With Typ 3 it must be "... der obersten SA-Führung"

Uwe