SS stick pin oppions.

[Seiler]

Who said the Gahr's were "hand engraved" on the reverse?

Why would the firm go to this trouble on a mass produced item?

Another collector myth in the making.

Only on the WAF, folks.

Before you start insulting people,get and READ ,the regulations regarding the engraving of (locally done )numbering to the reverse.This reference is to Gahr pins.
Just cost you an air fare to Berlin.to the Bundesarchiv.Oh,and the cost of the copies of the docs.

[Gary Symonds]

Before you start insulting people,get and READ ,the regulations regarding the engraving of (locally done )numbering to the reverse.This reference is to Gahr pins.
Just cost you an air fare to Berlin.to the Bundesarchiv.Oh,and the cost of the copies of the docs.

How am I insulting anyone by requesting proof? The claim is that the Gahr firm hand engraved the reverse of the SS stickpin. What the owner of the pin did once he owned it and decided to "locally engrave" his pin is irrelevant. What does that have to do with Gahr?

If any members own a Gahr pin, please post a clear closeup picture of the reverse so that the wording can be readily observed.

The only variations that I have seen on the reverse of the Gahr's posted on the forum was the silver content. Some were 800, some were 900. All appeared to be die struck, not hand engraved.

Nobody has to fly to Berlin to do this.

[J. Wraith]

How am I insulting anyone by requesting proof? The claim is that the Gahr firm hand engraved the reverse of the SS stickpin. What the owner of the pin did once he owned it and decided to "locally engrave" his pin is irrelevant. What does that have to do with Gahr?

If any members own a Gahr pin, please post a clear closeup picture of the reverse so that the wording can be readily observed.

The only variations that I have seen on the reverse of the Gahr's posted on the forum was the silver content. Some were 800, some were 900. All appeared to be die struck, not hand engraved.

Nobody has to fly to Berlin to do this.

The numbers will be engraved on a Gahr, but post one that is numbered and not hand engraved.

[jabnus]

One of the first rules is that it has to be mm with "Hoffstätter" in incuse relief Unless it is a Gahr of course.


Regards, Wim

What's going on here then?

I very much agree with Wim and if he hadn't i would have made a similar reply: we see every week (almost every day?) the most strange "fantasy" SS pins being posted, and always with the same question: "is it any good?".

As a simple guide (or rule?) to new collectors or luck seekers it is very easy to say that they should look out for a Hoffstätter pin, or (much less likely) a nice Gahr pin. With this in mind almost 99% of all the SS pin originality questions can be answered.

Gary, can you show us other originals that don't fall in the above two catagories?

The topic is now getting more confusing as is needed.

best regards,
Gaston

[Wim Vangossum]

Yes, I would like to see a few other genuine types that I can spend all my money on and add them to my collection. You may call me a "textbook' guy but don't take risks. Especially when textbook pieces are still pretty easy to find...

[Gary Symonds]

What's going on here then?

I very much agree with Wim and if he hadn't i would have made a similar reply: we see every week (almost every day?) the most strange "fantasy" SS pins being posted, and always with the same question: "is it any good?".

As a simple guide (or rule?) to new collectors or luck seekers it is very easy to say that they should look out for a Hoffstätter pin, or (much less likely) a nice Gahr pin. With this in mind almost 99% of all the SS pin originality questions can be answered.

Gary, can you show us other originals that don't fall in the above two catagories?

The topic is now getting more confusing as is needed.

best regards,
Gaston

Gaston, as you readily know, there are only two known makers of the civil SS stickpin, Hoffstatter and Gahr.

The reproduction pin that started this thread is the example always posted for opinions.

This same question regarding the stamped raised Hoffstatter's was discussed in a prior thread a short time ago. I said it then, and say it now, that Hoffstatter like other makers such as Deschler in the GPB, used different reverse dies. The obverse die in the incused and raised reverses are the same die.

I ask over and over for evidence other than a conclusionary opinion, to support the claim that the only original Hoffstatter SS stickpin must have an incused reverse.

I am still waiting for that evidence.

[J. Wraith]

Gaston, as you readily know, there are only two known makers of the civil SS stickpin, Hoffstatter and Gahr.

The reproduction pin that started this thread is the example always posted for opinions.

This same question regarding the stamped raised Hoffstatter's was discussed in a prior thread a short time ago. I said it then, and say it now, that Hoffstatter like other makers such as Deschler in the GPB, used different reverse dies. The obvserse die in the incused and raised reverses are the same

I am still waiting for that evidence.

Compare the enamel on an impressed marked Hoff to a raised Hoff. Your driving this thread off its course with a different argument that you cant win. Your statement here is that Gahr's are not all engraved and they are all number engraved or blank, so post a stamped number Gahr and be done with it. You like to pick fights on things you dont know, a good lawyer will pick his fights carefully and know when to walk away and your outgunned on this thread.

[J. Wraith]

Reference

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=otto+gahr

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ahr+pin&page=3

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=gahr+pin

[Gary Symonds]

Compare the enamel on an impressed marked Hoff to a raised Hoff. Your driving this thread off its course with a different argument that you cant win. Your statement here is that Gahr's are not all engraved and they are all number engraved or blank, so post a stamped number Gahr and be done with it. You like to pick fights on things you dont know, a good lawyer will pick his fights carefully and know when to walk away and your outgunned on this thread.

J. Back in early June this same topic came up on the Barto Forum. Our esteemed member Matthew posted the obverse of four SS civil stickpins, one of which was the questionable raised Hoffstatter.

Here is the link, and as you can see Matt had to point out the raised "repro" stickpin for our edification. Take a look and tell us how the incused Hoffstatter's enamel is superior.

I asked Mr. Matthew to repost this lineup without telling us what number is the suspect stickpin. As in a criminal lineup we could see if the membership can identify the suspect stickpin.

I am still waiting for Matthew to provide us with that little treat. It has only been 4 months.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=ss+stickpins

[J. Wraith]

J. Back in early June this same topic came up on the Barto Forum. Our esteemed member Matthew posted the obverse of four SS civil stickpins, one of which was the questionable raised Hoffstatter.

Here is the link, and as you can see Matt had to point out the raised "repro" stickpin for our edification. Take a look and tell us how the incused Hoffstatter's enamel is superior.

I asked Mr. Matthew to repost this lineup without telling us what number is the suspect stickpin. As in a criminal lineup we could see if the membership can identify the suspect stickpin.

I am still waiting for Matthew to provide us with that little treat. It has only been 4 months.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=ss+stickpins

Gary,

It is superior but as I stated in the other thread that you reference that you would need an example of both pins with one camera and photographer to illustrate the differences. Here and now and at that time you have the most knowledgeable guys on these pins commenting and people that have studied them at length including myself. I do not have a raised Hoff at this time nor an impressed example but I can assure you the enamel work on the raised examples tends to be different than the impressed examples. Lighting and magnification play tricks with these and that makes comparisons difficult. A shot under magnification of a raised Hoff and you do not even need to flip it over and you know its a raised Hoff in most cases.

P.S, If someone wants to ship off one of the two examples to someone who has the other for photos I would welcome the analysis personally.

[Gary Symonds]

Gary,

It is superior but as I stated in the other thread that you reference that you would need an example of both pins with one camera and photographer to illustrate the differences. Here and now and at that time you have the most knowledgeable guys on these pins commenting and people that have studied them at length including myself. I do not have a raised Hoff at this time nor an impressed example but I can assure you the enamel work on the raised examples tends to be different than the impressed examples. Lighting and magnification play tricks with these and that makes comparisons difficult. A shot under magnification of a raised Hoff and you do not even need to flip it over and you know its a raised Hoff in most cases.

P.S, If someone wants to ship off one of the two examples to someone who has the other for photos I would welcome the analysis personally.

J, Matthew's lineup has clear convincing closeups. Please point out with the evidence at hand why the incused examples have "superior" enamel to the "repro" raised Hoffs?

Pretty tough call considering that both types have the same obvserve die.

[J. Wraith]

J, Matthew's lineup has clear convincing closeups. Please point out with the evidence at hand why the incused examples have "superior" enamel to the "repro" raised Hoffs?

Pretty tough call considering that both types have the same obvserve die.

Cant do it without the photos as stated, those photos are all different and do not properly show the obverse. Very misleading these photos can be in the shape of the enamel, the quality of the enamel, etc. Lighting, angles, and just about every issue that can be a problem is a problem with SS stick pins. Matt himself was under the assumption that the surface of an obverse Gahr was flat, where he got that idea I do not know. The Hoff's are fairly easy but you have to have the right photos as the differences are clear under examination in hand.

[Gary Symonds]

Cant do it without the photos as stated, those photos are all different and do not properly show the obverse. Very misleading these photos can be in the shape of the enamel, the quality of the enamel, etc. Lighting, angles, and just about every issue that can be a problem is a problem with SS stick pins. Matt himself was under the assumption that the surface of an obverse Gahr was flat, where he got that idea I do not know. The Hoff's are fairly easy but you have to have the right photos as the differences are clear under examination in hand.

J, Matthew's lineup deals only with the Hoffs, what Gahr has to do with this discussion is irrelevant. I don't believe that these pictures can really be improved upon. They are what they are and yet as good as these lineup pictures are, you still cannot explain to us the superiority of the enamel of the incused Hoffs, can you?

Considering that you don't own a dog in this fight, truth is you are only speculating about these badges. That must be given weight in evaluating your opinion re the originality of the raised Hoffs.

[J. Wraith]

J, Matthew's lineup deals only with the Hoffs, what Gahr has to do with this discussion is irrelevant. I don't believe that these pictures can really be improved upon. They are what they are and yet as good as these lineup pictures are, you still cannot explain to us the superiority of the enamel of the incused Hoffs, can you?

Considering that you don't own a dog in this fight, truth is you are only speculating about these badges. That must be given weight in evaluating your opinion re the originality of the raised Hoffs.

The Gahr is relevant when it comes to photos and how these look under a lens as opposed to in hand. You have a losing battle as market does not recognize your pins as original so go to sell them and they have to be offered as reproductions or a dealer has to refund the monies, that is the reality. I am not speculating and know the pins far better than you realize as do the others that comment here now. Your arguments are based on the fact you own them and want them to be real, my motive is to make sure that new collectors are not lead astray by your pattern of buying where originality is dictated by who you got it from or where you got it from as opposed to study. An uneducated buyer with an opinion is an uneducated buyer with an opinion, nothing more and nothing less. I told you what you need, so get it or don't get it, I don't care. But the pins are different.

[Wim Vangossum]

I don't own (and I don't want to own) a raised Hoffstätter but had one in my hands for a quick inspection. They look different. If possible I ask the owner if I can lend his one and make a comparising side by side picture. Maybe that's the solution to get out this discussion.


Regards, Wim