Originally posted by speedytop
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Hello Uwe, yes as you stated an early plastic albeit more durable than plastics that are not bakelite i.e plastics that are not attributed to Leo Baekland -
Pfff, enjoy your wisdom Martin, clearly only you know what you talk about.
a) Rub your BAKELITE badge (if you have it) and smell it, you know very well what i talk about then. And no the VW bakelite badges are not marked the same as the badge you show here. I think i might have that as well by the way!
b) I couldn't care less who are the "advanced" collectors, or especially who like to call themselves that name. On many occasions before i have proven them they are wrong and yes then the replies like your's here above come. Good for you.
c) No where in the two posts i made in this topic before i used sarcasm, im sorry if you read it like that, maybe because im not a native speaker, but my posts were meant seriously. As such i seriously don't understand why of a certain badge that is known to have been made of bakelite would also have been made a small series in inferior zinc? This is not sarcasm, this is a serious question i wonder about? Unfortunately you have forgotten to answer this. In case you start rambling about advanced collectors again: please tell me the criteria what makes an advanced collector? I should maybe tell im a badge collector as well and have well over 2000 badges and traded several VW badges over the years. Not that this means anything, but it appears you only take "advanced" collectors seriously? (Now im sarcastic!!!!!!)
d) You are the one who brought up the coloured plastic tinnies, and i say again they are not made of the same bakelite VW badge. Any "advanced" collector should know this and see it immediatly (yes, now im sarcastic again!). Rub your badge and smell it, it is not plastic. You don't need to deal for 40 years to use your nose, do you? (Now im again sarcastic!). If ever you like to see real rare badges im happy to open a topic for you and post some new ones. (Now im again sarcastic!). of course also zinc ones.
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On a serious note: It would be nice if we could all learn more here about this zinc version, besides the rambling about advanced collectors who only know what they talk about. Just like in my previous post i would still like to know and learn more about the zinc badge and think that showing any random zinc pre 1945 badge shows nothing else besides that zinc badges existed.Comment
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For the beifit of other Members perhaps it would be best to put this one to bed by stating what I say to all opinionated self appointed experts .............'you obviously know best' and just like your ilk can not and will not admit when they are wrong.
I back up what i say with Pictorial eveidence........ not talk !
Now I will not dignify this with any more replies as it is up to other members to determine from what they read here what the true facts are and not have false facts forced down their throats.
such a shame for the forum that a few spoil it for so many that even when presented with Pictirial evidence still have to contest everthing.........why just not admit your wrong............... I am man enough to do this when I am wrong. To be honest this reply is not for you it is for the benifit of the members who suffer in silence when so called 'self appointed experts' come along and can't acknowldge when they are wrong.
Like I have done with another WAF Member who always knows best I will in future not enter in to this sort of farcical " handbags at Dawn" Scenario as once I loose respect for someone I no longer take them seriously.
Occassionaly self appointed experts do need taking down a peg or two although as can be seen here to no avail .............
as a barage of sarcasm and derogative comments really does endorse what I have stated...........and now you acknowledged that a Zinc version exists............... well at least you admit this even at the risk of contradicting even your self ............Last edited by Martin Harding; 07-27-2014, 11:52 AM.Comment
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Quiet observations.Originally posted by Martin Harding View Post
This "pictorial evidence", would that be an image of a zinc badge, accompanied with not a shred of anything except a self proclaimed expert demanding that it is real?
Would it be the following picture post where two zinc badges are shown and a conclusion is reached that both are genuine because they have the "identical silver finish to the reverse"? with nothing else accompanying that image either except the opinion of a self proclaimed expert?
Martin, you make mention of "evidence" and use words like "facts";as it is up to other members to determine from what they read here what the true facts are and not have false facts forced down their throats.
But what facts Martin? There have been no facts presented here at all, from anyone, yourself included. Only,as you yourself say, sell appointed experts shoving things down peoples throats, and if you go back and read everything you have posted, you will see how strange this looks to everyone. What a mess.....
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Joe, I didn't think it would take you long to come out of the woodwork....why don't you inform everyone on the forum how many tinnies you have in your collection............as stated by your self it is zero......... I rest my case.............any way you have a new buddy here now and like I have already said to you before you know best............. your already banned on other Military forums so my so called 'imaginary friends' inform me.Originally posted by Jo Rivett View PostQuiet observations.
This "pictorial evidence", would that be an image of a zinc badge, accompanied with not a shred of anything except a self proclaimed expert demanding that it is real?
Would it be the following picture post where two zinc badges are shown and a conclusion is reached that both are genuine because they have the "identical silver finish to the reverse"? with nothing else accompanying that image either except the opinion of a self proclaimed expert? <<<< if you knew had the slightest knowledge regarding tinnies you would realise that the silver finish to the obverse when it has survived intact is a characteristic of zinc constructed badges
Martin, you make mention of "evidence" and use words like "facts";as it is up to other members to determine from what they read here what the true facts are and not have false facts forced down their throats.
But what facts Martin? There have been no facts presented here at all, from anyone, yourself included. Only,as you yourself say, sell appointed experts shoving things down peoples throats, and if you go back and read everything you have posted, you will see how strange this looks to everyone. What a mess.....
Forgive me for not entering in to this because if you knew the first thing about tinnies you could easily deduce from the Pictures that the badge I posted was authentic.
As for how strange things look perhpas you should read a few of your posts where you show obviously no respect for no one.
No more to say on the matter 'Joe' although you do make me laugh so much .................. I love that saying...............empty vessels make most noise
come on to my SA tinnie thread Joe I am sure your knowledge on this subject would benifit us all .............. no ?
never handle a single tinnie but an expert............... ok Joe 'you know best'Last edited by Martin Harding; 07-27-2014, 12:41 PM.Comment
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And then you make it even worse?Originally posted by Martin Harding View Post
You talk and type a lot, but bring nothing to the table. Please show the forum this talked about period evidence?
I have NOWHERE said that i think that zinc badges are real, yet that there is now one in the topic and that i would like to learn more from it. If it gets proven to be real i'd gladly accept it to be real, but everything you posted so far didn't prove a thing. Also i have never said im an expert on anything, yet you present yourself as the big advanced collector. You see how this looks? All i do is question a badge that is different from what i have learned over the years. Instead of helping and showing the forum evidence why it's real, you start crawling back and play a victimrole that is totally unnecesary. this could have been a good topic, but you choose to be hautain and then when questioned insult me for being an expert? Let me tell you again: im not an expert and i would never like to be one. I do know however when something stinks and when someone talks nonsense.
Remember you are the one who started with the sarcasm? How does it feel if someone else does that? I expected you to be the bigger man and understand that and that you would point the dicussion into the right direction, but instead a lot of blabla and then you make it even worse.
I say again: we KNOW after many years of collecting that the bakelite leightweight badges with the same design as the zincer you showed in post #4 + 5 are good ones. Personally im not aware that zinc ones with this design are good too and i hoped to be able to learn more from this. Appearantly this is not possible and we get a lot of crap from an "advanced collector" who speaks of pictorial evidence but hasn't shown a thing! For me i would not want to spent a penny on such a zincer!
Gaston
ps: i do have a published article somewhere about these badges. It was published if i remember well somewhere in the 90's. I'll try and dig it up over the next few days/weeks, as far as i remember there was no mentioning of a zinc badge. if you can before i dig it up show evidence that would be great. You have a chance here to be the bigger man and post evidence, why don't you do that?Comment
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I would like to see a picture of the Bakelite badge. I don't think I have seen an illustration of this one before. In all the pictures I have seen it has looked like a zinc (lightweight zinc?) badge.
I have been after one for some years, and would like to know what is the proper type and what it looks like.
PeteComment
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Well, it took me exactly one phonecall to a friend to get a nice "story" regarding these badges for you all here. About 6 or 7 years ago we wanted one of the VW badges but couldn't see the trees through the forest of fakes so to speak. Especially my friend (credits were credits are due, i know he'll read this so better give him the credits) really started looking into these badges. Him and me must have checked several dozens of fake badges but none seemed believable enough to dare to purchase it. It became also clear at the time that none of the militariaforums around would be able to give an conclusive answer, so answers had to be sought elsewhere. Around this time my friend - who also likes cars - started to check car forums (no militaria at all) and ended up in a scene with people who collected Volkswagen memorabilia. We tend to forget at times that there is a whole world outside of militaria collecting and our beloeved forums like WAF. My friend got ultimately in contact with a man named Robert Gilmore, who had done a lot of research into these pins and somehow figured out (appearantly from period sources?) how the very first pin looked like. I wish i could present his sources, but unfortunately i can't as we never got to know them. I do have however the article he wrote on the badges. This article was published in the Jan 1997 issue of Hot VWs magazine and was called "Der Kleine Käfer". All credits to Mr. Gilmore for this article on the VW badges.
Before posting the article under here, first a few things to think about:
a) the article is nice but as you can immediatly see after reading, it doesn't give the used period sources or footnotes for telling what badges are real and not. I do personally however like the badges shown here much more than most things written on most militariaforum. Not that this says anything as im not an "advanced collector" by the criteria of some (yes im sarcastic again now).
b) I just asked my friend for a picture of the badge he has (which was mine for a short time before he got it), it is definately NOT a zincer, although i have to admit it looks very similar to the one from Martin Hardings first post. We did discuss this in the past on other fora with other collectors and after some struggling found out the bakelite smell trick, thus confirming the bakelite material as mentioned by Mr Gilmore. And of course thus confirming it is/was not zinc material! The badges are very well made and do have some sort of metalic feel to them (especially the mint ones, which are very hard to come by!), contrary to zinc badges the surface feels also very smooth, not as rough as many zinc badges do. Also the surface is more "blackish" underneath the silver colour. My theory is that the material used to make badges in the period of the early and late 1930's was subject to quite some experimenting and new materials were as well discovered. From the same period we know of e.g Trolitul kunststof, Efoplast, Efoleder, Nitroplast, Bakelite and god knows what other materials and alloys our beloved collectibles are/were made of. I confess as a non advanced collector again i lack the expertise to know about all alloys, but ... i suspect the VW badges might be made perhaps from some sort of bakelite alloy or at the time new lightweight material. Perhaps another forummember who did some research can jump in here and tell us more? I do know that the VW badges when rubbed have the bakelite smell as i tested that at the time. A thing to investigate and which has puzzled us for several years now is the "crimped" style of the part holding the safety needle. (Can this be done in "normal" bakelite or not?).
c) After inspecting it turned out the what i think are original VW badges, are extremely light, with a weight of just over 3 grams!
d) We DO need more research on these badges. And although it's nice and the only article im aware of at this point, this article is by now a bit outdated. It may be a nice start for more knowledge though. Hopeflully no forummembers feel too "big" to add more information and knowledge if they have it? What i would very much like to see is a period source, even better with crisp images of the badge. Time will tell if this information will ever come forward.
best regards,
Gaston-the none-advanced-collector (can someone shoot me please?)Last edited by jabnus; 07-27-2014, 03:35 PM.Comment
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more:Comment
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My friends badge, the as far as we know accepted original. Not in the best condition as you can see. Still i'd take this above any of the many fake ones. it is NOT made of zinc !!!!
If there is also any need for pictures of fakes just ask and i'll post a few dozen for reference.
Looking forward to more information. We need period sources now to learn more from.
best regards,
GastonComment
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Thank you Gaston.
This is a picture and article I have seen before.
Unfortunately this picture cannot conclusively say that it is Bakelite. As it looks like zinc and the corrosion and white discolorations, loss of finish (especially to the front) and pin crimping method are typical of zinc badges. Bakelite does not corrode either. On the few Bakelite badges I have, the pin fixing method is molded into the badge.
But we do know it is lightweight.
PeteComment
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Hi Pete,
Yes the crimped pin has puzzled me for a long time as well, but im still sure the badge is not made of zinc and is (some sort of?) bakelite. A lot of different and new methods and materials were used for e.g the small badges of the 1930's. Could it be that some sort of bakelite alloy was invented? The smell trick does work, but i agree with you that "standard" bakelite (brownish, blackish?) has often molded area's for the pin instead of the here visible crimped style. More questions than answers...
best regards,
Gaston
ps: yes i think you were/are a member on the old forum as well.Comment
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Pete your 100% spot on at last someone who knows what they are taking about..............the Badge is zinc ............. and like the perfect Gentleman that you are expressed it in a far more diplomatic way than I would have done.Originally posted by Wood View Post
Gaston really needs to go back to basics I didn't realise he thought a zinc Badge was bakelite ...I the lack of knowledge is worse than I initially diagnosed
and as for Joe perhaps one shoudl try actually stating something constructive to the thread rather than just resorting to derrogative comments.
I guess Petes comment says it all ..............non the less Gaston I am sure you will be back again with another 80 paragraphs on a Badge that you don't actually own an example of but know so much about.
I have not had so much fun on this forum in a long time challenging the 'resident experts' and young Joe entering the arena did make me laugh until it hurt ............... a lesson for us all ..................he who laughs least laughs longest
Actually thinking that a text Book zinc Badge is actually Bakelite
Last edited by Martin Harding; 07-27-2014, 06:26 PM.Comment
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Gaston, you don't actually own the badge hence it's bad enough you can't even tell the difference between Bakelite and zinc from the Picture however I have posted my example which is zinc and is identical to the picture but still you can't acknowledge the fact. here is one you have lost just admit it...........if not please let's here from another member who can confirm what is obviously a zinc BadgeOriginally posted by jabnus View PostHi Pete,
Yes the crimped pin has puzzled me for a long time as well, but im still sure the badge is not made of zinc and is (some sort of?) bakelite. A lot of different and new methods and materials were used for e.g the small badges of the 1930's. Could it be that some sort of bakelite alloy was invented? The smell trick does work, but i agree with you that "standard" bakelite (brownish, blackish?) has often molded area's for the pin instead of the here visible crimped style. More questions than answers...
best regards,
Gaston
ps: yes i think you were/are a member on the old forum as well.Comment
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Martin, really? Please re-read my posts, the badge i had and gave away is NOT a typical zinc badge. You can make fun of me as much as you want but it wont change that fact. Of the probably few hundred zinc badges i still have and many many more i HAD over the years, this one is simply different. I don't know about yours but it DOES feel different, smell different when rubbed and weight different (close to nothing). It's surface is smoother as well. You are also indeed not very dimplomatic and although triumphant now, you forget you yourself went with a plastic/bakelite story as well on page one. Sure, great going! But what lacks the most is you bringing ANY evidence at all, but instead talk about things you can't back up and worst of all talk down everyone that doesn't agree with you.
Im sorry if you think my replies are like "80 paragraphs" and are too much, reading and typing is for adults usualy not a problem but juding your replies i understand it must be hard for you.
The reason for not owning the badge anymore is also simple: although i very actively collected tinnies in the past and still occasionaly add one here and there, they are for many years not my priority anymore. I find them all the time and buy groups and then trade them of to friends or sometimes even sell them to get other items i like. One of my best friends who i spoke about above here wanted this one, so i gave it to him. You probably don't understand this, but who cares? He's happy and i'm happy for him, thats what friendship is about. You seem to feel very special because you only collect tinnies but i get the feeling i probably still have many more than you. Not that this means anything for me, but appearantly you're the type who wants to compare who has the biggest d***. We all know what this says about your type, do we?
I just re-read this part under and it's quite the eyeopener:
So, you have posted a few SA tinnies? Should we praise the lord now and sing hallelujah? What does this say about you as self proclaimed expert? I scrolled through your little SA tinnies thread and of those 120 i have traded at least 100 myself the past two years to finance another item. I think you even tried to buy one or two 1929 badges from me on the e-stand not that long ago? I didn't realise it then but it says a lot. Is this all you can show? There aren't even that very rare tinnies in that thread and at least 90% are the usual SA tinnies you can find anywhere. It seems you have talked yourself much deeper into this mess then you must have expected and instead of clearing this up like an adult by showing evidence everyone can learn from, and share what you claim, you keep playing it personal. Can YOU please finally share anything worth to the collecting community besides an opinion that you are so great and other people aren't? Else please shut up. 40 years of collecting experience? But you post like a disgruntled jealous 15 year old kid who didn't get what he wanted.Originally posted by Martin Harding View Post
So far i have pointed the topic starter out to the model that is the accepted original (im also more than happy to talk about it's base material and am open to learn more from it), further posted an article about the badges and tried in between to get a discussion going about the badge. What have you done besides telling again and again how great you think you are?
Right... nothing!
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