SS zivilabzeichen pin: real or fake?

[Wim Vangossum]

There are clear diffrences on the obverse if you look at the raised mm Hoffstätters and the examples with stamped letters. The runes are more even and the distance between the two siegrunes is wider with the fake.

In the Siegrunes of original Hoffstätters is indeed variation. Some are more fat and other looks slim.


Regards, Wim

[Wim Vangossum]

another with stamped mark...



Regards, Wim

[Gary Symonds]

Wim, interesting pictures of the obverse of the raised Hoffs. We have examples of three different obverse dies in play. A fat pair of runes, a medium size and in post 80, #9643, skinny runes with more separation between the runes then even the "fake" raised Hoff. Sort of like the 3 Bears.

We of course have different number fonts all over the place.

Obviously, Hoffstatter changed the obverse of the SS civil stickpin many times. Why not the reverse? Oh well, let us not be bothered by the facts.

Wim, can you please explain why the "fake" raised Hoff in post 91 has so much wear? Lot and lots of chips and dings to the enamel, in fact more wear than the incused "originals."

Amazing how much use a repro can go through.

The raised Hoff in post 91 must have been on the dinner jacket of a reinactor going to a lot of cocktail parties in the 70s. That would certainly explain all that faked "use."

Maybe, author Rivett can chime in or leave it up to "Boris the animal" maybe even "prance around the fire" for a reasonable explanation how a repro can get so worn.

How about it author Rivett?

[SiPo]

A few years on a bikers jacket will do the job more than adequately.

[David Fettes]

Even though the raised Hoffstätter has been shown to be the same as the fake JFS this still rumbles on. So lets throw something else into the mix. I am sure Jo has already spotted this because, well Jo is Jo.

Below are three badges we know are good and I will call them type 1, 2 and 3. (There are other types but I am keeping it simple because I am stupid)

Please pay attention to the font used in the name AND the font used for the numbers.

The next photo shows another members badge. By comparing the font, we can see that it matches type 1 (again just to be clear these are my numbering systems)
Low and behold the number range also matches.

So a question arises.
If the raised Hoffstätters are real, where does the numbering system go in the sequence of the stamped examples.



.

[Gary Symonds]

A few years on a bikers jacket will do the job more than adequately.

Or worn on a jacket from 1935-1945.

The biker stuff is always over the top. These guys like iron crosses, these guys like swastikas.

A tiny little 13mm stickpin with runes is not going to cut it in my opinion.

[Wim Vangossum]

@ David: I see what you mean and it indeed make sense.

@Gary: We will probably never agree about the raised Hoffstätters. I don't have a problem with a raised maker mark in general. But I do have big concerns when this tiny written maker mark has an extremely even font. There are many fake party badges and slogan badges that use a similar type of font. I only try to understand which die cutter would create such a "mechanical" font in that period?

To me it makes no sense. It makes me think about the same way an acid etched maker mark on daggers, how delicate it may be executed, still can't reach the quality of the laser etched maker marks we find on ordinary kitchen knives today.
The period etched maker marks look pretty nice from a distance, but when you look very close they become crude. The laser etched maker mark keeps it perfect shape, even under a certain magnification.

And that's what I see on a raised mm Hoffstätter: a very tiny even lettering in a very chubby font???


Regards, Wim

[Gary Symonds]

@ David: I see what you mean and it indeed make sense.

@Gary: We will probably never agree about the raised Hoffstätters. I don't have a problem with a raised maker mark in general. But I do have big concerns when this tiny written maker mark has an extremely even font. There are many fake party badges and slogan badges that use a similar type of font. I only try to understand which die cutter would create such a "mechanical" font in that period?

To me it makes no sense. It makes me think about the same way an acid etched maker mark on daggers, how delicate it may be executed, still can't reach the quality of the laser etched maker marks we find on ordinary kitchen knives today.
The period etched maker marks look pretty nice from a distance, but when you look very close they become crude. The laser etched maker mark keeps it perfect shape, even under a certain magnification.

And that's what I see on a raised mm Hoffstätter: a very tiny even lettering in a very chubby font???


Regards, Wim

Wim, you may be right.

Let's ask author Rivett for his evidence re "micro-patina."

That should settle it, right?

[Wim Vangossum]

Maybe he keeps the pictures for the new book? The M1/70 comes also in the book with all the details revealing its fake appearence. But because of the fact that we already are so busy with this items right now, things become out dated before publishing at the end. I mean, If he lay al his cards on the table, what would be left over for the new book? I know that's not a solution for the demand on this very moment but it's up to Jo what he decide to do and when, I guess...


Regards, Wim

[RossK]

Another low numbered ZA example with the original display card to add to the mix.

Enjoy!

RossK

[Gary Symonds]

Maybe he keeps the pictures for the new book? The M1/70 comes also in the book with all the details revealing its fake appearence. But because of the fact that we already are so busy with this items right now, things become out dated before publishing at the end. I mean, If he lay al his cards on the table, what would be left over for the new book? I know that's not a solution for the demand on this very moment but it's up to Jo what he decide to do and when, I guess...


Regards, Wim

Wim, is it now obvious that he really did nothing with our badges and pins. The hard truth is that he has no evidence, good or bad on the raised Hoffs, and has no evidence good or bad about the HJ M1/70s.

Jo Rivett did nothing.

End of story.

[Jo Rivett]

Maybe he keeps the pictures for the new book? The M1/70 comes also in the book with all the details revealing its fake appearence.

Wim, thats correct to a certain extent.
But one step at a time. Other badges are in the waiting line, and need to be correctly addressed first.

The M1/70 is actually a very poor copy once looked at in detail. There are much better copies, the early Souval for example. But thats for another time and place.

[David Fettes]

Another low numbered ZA example with the original display card to add to the mix.RossK

Another good "Fettes" type 1

[Röhm1929]

Well there goes a long and serrated knife deep into the heart of the forum small-talkers, the scared, the sundry chatters, the pseudo experts and other generally unknowledgeable wastes of space who think (and pray) that if something is said often enough by the "right" people then it must be the truth. Keep that investment safe though boys and lie if you must. The game must go on! Bring on that spiked bat Mr Rivett - it's long overdue.

Do you think you will have a place at that table Mr.Rohm1929 ?

If invited I would certainly decline as I am useless at small-talk and chatter. I prefer conversations that get straight to the point and I have a preference for others who take the same approach. I also have a weak spot for people who can argue their corner strongly but who can gracefully admit when they are wrong.

[Matthew]

If invited I would certainly decline as I am useless at small-talk and chatter..

Ah, you're way too hard on yourself.
In fact, I'd go as far as saying your small talk and chatter is much better than your knowledge and useful information included in your posts.

cheers

Matt