SS zivilabzeichen pin: real or fake?

[Gary Symonds]

Sadly you are correct, i try to, i really do, but somehow the BS still seems to follow me around...

No, Jo, the BS is self inflicted. Reading post 60, what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? Whether the raised Hoffs are real or not? Post 60, is BS at its best. But, this is what you bring to the table, BS nonsense, and expect the membership to "clap their little handies" because the great prophet has spoken.

How I "twisted the words" in your book, or how I "tarnished" your "research" remains unexplained. I quoted your very words in your book and painted you into an intellectual corner. Easily gotten out of by simply publishing the results of your research into SS stickpins 11385 and 11376, that I sent you to Switzerland, that you had dominion and control over for 2 months.

For those two months, you could examine them, prod them, piss on them, do whatever you wanted, I did not care. Just tell me, and the WAF membership based on your posted research if these stickpins were good or bad. You could be the hero of the WAF. The guy who finally laid to rest this momentous question.

Instead, you treat us to rambling nonsense in post 60 that truly raises questions about your credibilty. "Telling you your fortune" or "prancing around the fire" what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? Answer? Nothing.

I have done nothing but praise you and your book in this thread. I was the first man to put down money in the publisher B&D's hand for your book. Ask Dietrich Maerz. What do I get in return? Derision, defamation, insults.

You mention being expelled. I was informed by someone in the know, that you had previously been expelled, and that this person pulled some strings to have you readmitted. At the time, I told this person with some relief, what a good idea it was. "We need a guy like Rivett," said I. Now I have some serious doubts.

What I find astonishing, is that the more intellectually curious members of the WAF are not demanding you put your money where your mouth is and actually write something cogent instead of crazy ass nonsense that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

I just realized that since you are not an Associate Member, that may explain why you have not posted pictures of your purported "research" of the absence or presence of micro-patina on these stickpins. If that is the problem Jo, I'd be happy to front the 25 bucks, and make you an Associate, if that will get you on the stick, and provide some cogent answers instead of murky and totally irrelevant smelly offal from bovine male animals.

How about it Jo? I'll contact the WAF and pay for your upgrade. Can't do better than that. Right?

Sir, you have been a major disapointment. I dealt with you in good faith. If I could, I would demand a refund of my $100 from B&D Publishing, for publishing a work of fiction, The Party Badge, disguised as valid research.

You tell us in post 60, "The next work will be me, coming through the now open door, swinging a very big bat with nails in it, in each and every direction." A very small bat with wet noodles, says I.

[andrewb]

I purchased this SS stickpin at the West Coast Collectors Show in Pomona, California in May 2014. Val posted the stickpin for WAF review in March 2014, sent it back for a refund, which was paid, and obviously the seller brought it to the show and sold it to me. In fact, I showed it to Bob Hritz who had a table at the show, for his opinion.

Gary,

Just two questions if I may.

1. What was Bob's opinion?
2. Do you believe that the JFS SS stickpin in post 13 is a fake?

Regards,
AB.

[Röhm1929]

.....the times of bringing no meat to the table, yet still wanting a place around it - are over.

Well there goes a long and serrated knife deep into the heart of the forum small-talkers, the scared, the sundry chatters, the pseudo experts and other generally unknowledgeable wastes of space who think (and pray) that if something is said often enough by the "right" people then it must be the truth. Keep that investment safe though boys and lie if you must. The game must go on! Bring on that spiked bat Mr Rivett - it's long overdue.

[Matthew]

this must be the fluff post you mentioned awhile back

Do you think you will have a place at that table Mr.Rohm1929 ?

[Gary Symonds]

Gary,

Just two questions if I may.

1. What was Bob's opinion?
2. Do you believe that the JFS SS stickpin in post 13 is a fake?

Regards,
AB.

Andrew, at the show Bob Hritz thought the raised Hoff was an original.

In fact when the big debate about the raised reverse was previoulsy going on last year, I asked Bob thru an email his opinion, about maker's changing the reverse dies on their badges.

If Bob cares too, he can post the opinions he provided me at the show, and subsequent thereto.

About the JFS SS stickpin, I have no opinion, no knowledge.

Collector lore says that there were only two makers, Gahr and Hoffstatter.

This of course could be another of the many collector myths that we deal with in this hobby.

Andrew, I hope this answers your question.

Gary

[Bob Hritz]

Gary,

Just two questions if I may.

1. What was Bob's opinion?
2. Do you believe that the JFS SS stickpin in post 13 is a fake?

Regards,
AB.

Hello Andrew,

I have never collected these pins and have never owned or studied them. I saw Gary's pin and it looked good to me, in quality of workmanship and finish. I was totally unaware the raised Hofstadters were not considered original. I wish I had been armed with better information and sadly, I unwittingly let Gary down.

Of course, I still have no interest in these pins, but cannot understand why other makers can have both raised and impressed markings, but Hoffstadter cannot. I wish there was a definative answer as to the origin of the raised mark pins.

Bob Hritz

[Jo Rivett]

Of course, I still have no interest in these pins, but cannot understand why other makers can have both raised and impressed markings, but Hoffstadter cannot. I wish there was a definative answer as to the origin of the raised mark pins.
Bob Hritz

Bob, Hoffstätter can, and does - as i showed - have raised and sunken markings, so does EVERY maker of small badges. No exception.

BUT.. when it comes to a handful of certain items, there is indeed only one way we find a maker(s) marking them.

Deschler made SSFM and SSFM honor pins for example, only sunken, or impressed markings. Although Deschler used sunken and raised on small badges of all kinds for 100 years and more.

More often than not we find "only one style" on special-contract badges, made almost certainly by that maker, and not a sub-contractor as most [general] small badges were.

a side note. I cant reply to posts i cant see, so to avoid people getting mad who may see me post after their posts, but not address them ... sorry.

[Jo Rivett]

Even the simplest of coconuts could do a quick photo-shop.

Cut the runes from the obverse of the J.F.S fake, and the Hoffstätter Toys-R-us fake, then see if they fit into "each other" and of course they do.

If anyone would like unedited, large images of both the JFS and Hoffstätter Toys-R-us fake to try this for themselves, just PM me and i`ll mail them your way.
Or i will mail you the J.F.S fake image, and Gary Symonds can mail you an image of his fake, that way i cant be accused of tampering.

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you, Jo. I have never liked the JFS pieces and can clearly see the front die is identical to that of the raised mark Hofstadter pins. That clears it up for me. I am only sorry that I did not know this and was not able to five forwarning to Gary when he showed me the pin he picked up atlast years Pomona Show.

Even this old collector (me) still needs to learn more every day.

Bob Hritz

[Wim Vangossum]

This one wat posted in 2006 here on WAF. I remember that RaymondG, a specialized SS-Zivilabzeichen collector had no good comments on this Hoffstätters with raised mm. If I look at the shape of the letters, I can't belief that this is a period pré-war badge. Note also that the stamping tool let square mark around the digits. Another feature that is not found on the normal incuse relief made examples.


Regards, Wim

[andrewb]

Andrew, I hope this answers your question.

Gary

Yes Gary, thanks for your reply.


Regards,
AB.

[andrewb]

Hello Andrew,

I have never collected these pins and have never owned or studied them. I saw Gary's pin and it looked good to me, in quality of workmanship and finish. I was totally unaware the raised Hofstadters were not considered original. I wish I had been armed with better information and sadly, I unwittingly let Gary down.

Of course, I still have no interest in these pins, but cannot understand why other makers can have both raised and impressed markings, but Hoffstadter cannot. I wish there was a definative answer as to the origin of the raised mark pins.

Bob Hritz

Hello Bob,

Thanks for jumping in.

To me, the raised Hofstadters pins look way to similar to the JFS and if we have in fact established that JFS SS pins are fake well then there is not much more to say. One has to ask why would Hofstadters have both raised and stamped MM for a stick pin. But that aside, the two are IMO chalk and cheese in quality and that, by itself must be a concern.

Regards,
AB.

[andrewb]

Gary,

Do you have an opinion as to when the raised Hofs where made? ie, before or after the stamped ones. I assume you would discount the idea that they would be made at the same time.

Regards,
AB.

[tystgaard]

Does someone have a textbook type with
a number under 13000?

I have 2 textbook types but with a high number
if someone have a lownumber pin then
we might have one more clue to this puzzle.

BR
Nicolai

Gary,

Do you have an opinion as to when the raised Hofs where made? ie, before or after the stamped ones. I assume you would discount the idea that they would be made at the same time.

Regards,
AB.

[Wim Vangossum]

I hope this thread will be the last one that we spent on the SS-zivilabzeichen with raised maker mark.


Regards, Wim