DLV Balloon Enamel Membership Stickpin

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Gregorio.

I still have two, one i broke the pin off, but the third copy i have, is still in very good condition. If anyone thinks i am joking, i would gladly ship them the last one i have, in good condition, for Shipping and handling only. BUT, i will etch IMIT. into the back with a dremel. They are all over for sale, as i said for as much as 400 euros (LINK)

Those who know me, know, that i sell small badges. Not Uniforms, Buckles, hats or Desk sets, only small badges. If there was a chance in hell i could shift three of these - which i have - for even 150 a piece, thats 450 bucks and i would be happy. But i cant, i would be selling a fake, so i have to take a loss dont i.
I was sent one, (the guy told me to keep it) thats the one i ate, and two more i acquired in recent job-lots, both in good condition, so it was not that i went "hunting for them" to expose them, they just "landed" in my lap to inspect, hence this post, this warning.

But as i said, i know very well about business, and i understand that not everyone can laugh when they find three fakes in their collection, or afford to take a loss. It sounds as bad as it is, and is a sad fact. I also realize that many users here are dealers, and may have sold one, or commented positively on a thread about them, so do now, not want to be left holding the dirty banana (?) - they will either say nothing - keep stumm - or they will kick and scream.

Jedem das Seine....

[Peter J.]

The version with blue balloon and black wings is not accounted for in Angolia's book from 1996.

cheers
Peter

[Wim Vangossum]

Well guys, Rivett has now outed the DLV stickpins. He is on a roll. What is his evidence, "Boris-the-animal" says so. Well, that proves it folks!

Let's see, he has claimed that the Hoffstatter SS civil stickpins with raised maker marks are fake. His next target was the Kindeschar membership stickpins with raised RZM mark and full M1/63 marks are fake.

As to the SS stickpins not a shread of objective evidence has he posted, which he has in his possession for 2 months, courtesy of me.

As to the kiddie pins he shows an enlargement of the number "3" as part of maker "63" and tells us the font in the fully marked badge's reverse, don't match the "original" badge w/o full markings. As if a new reverse die from M1/63, Steinhauser and Luck, was impossible and out of the question, because he says so.

Today, in the Police forum he hit the aircraft workers merit badge with raised marks. Made in the good old US of A. No evidence needed folks.

What's next? Well, I'll tell you friends, it is going to be HJ Gold Honor pins marked M1/70, with raised RZM marks, with membership numbers.

How do I know? Jo told me in a private email late last year that he believed the M1/70s were all fake. When I sent Jo Rivett in Switzerland my two raised Hoff SS pins, I also sent him, among other stickpins and badges, my M1/70, asking him evidence of "micro-paina" per his book. Let's see, he had all of my pins and badges for only 2 months. Still waiting.

So, guys, those of you who thought your HJ M1/70s are original are going to be in a for a rude surprise.

And remember as in the SS stickpin thread, when he makes the claim about the M1/70s being all "fake" just sitck your heads in the sand and don't demand that Rivett show the evidence of my M1/70, with or without "micro-patina," let alone the raised Hoffs, with or without "micro-patina."

After all, it is in his book, mankind was introduced to "micro-patina."

Gary,

To come back to the M1/70, it is indeed a plain fake. I'm the other onwner who send his badge to Jo Rivett. As a dedicated collector of Goldenes HJ Ehrenzeichens, I already had a bad feeling about them. I followed up the pieces with Bezitsurkundes for many years and saw the first problem: never was there an M1/70 showing up with papers. Then there is the second problem: If you lay a bunch of HJ Ehrenzeichens side by side, the gilding color, or the lack of it, is very clear. Third problem: the repeated numbering from 8000 to 9999. Other Ehrenzeichens have all kind of numbers, without specific numbers for a certain maker. So I guess what Jo did was the last and final step to determine them 100 % fake. In the group shot the difference in color is not very clear, in real it is much better to see. Pictures are sometimes way out of color due to a wrong white balance.

I've put my own M1/70 in the little box of shame. Every evidence was almost there, right under my eyes but still I failed to see it in time. It was only after Jo's demand for the badge that I put 2 and 2 togheter and drew my conclusions. I even can't send my badge back to the dealer because I especially ordered the M1/70 that was still missing in my HJ Ehrenzeichen collection.

[Jo Rivett]

The version with blue balloon and black wings is not accounted for in Angolia's book from 1996.

cheers
Peter

Nothing in the early 70`s B&R catalogs, or the Heering either. First sight of it i can find is in the 1990/1992 Heering/Hüsken. Doesn't mean anything really. many fakes in the early catalogs, and many new, rare, genuine badges being added to newer books today - so not really a focal point but nice to know, i agree, and i do try and trace them back myself, see if i can connect the dots.

[Jo Rivett]

Wim, yes, and if you remember, i was always saying that there is no problem with them, and that there was even a way that the maker could have made them in the time span afforded before his M1/ license was taken away. So in fact i liked them, before i had a chance to look at one myself, in detail
So i shattered my own dreams really not that i had one - pfffew, close call bell - but of course never really took a great interest with them, and i guess was persuaded by the masses - until i invented the Microscope, now the games changed...

[Gary Symonds]

Wim, as to the HJ M1/70s, we sent to Jo Rivett, I requested in my cover letter evidence or the lack thereof of "micro-patina" proving or disproving actual "use" on my example.

If "micro-patina" cannot be "humanly faked," per Jo's book, my M1/70 should show no evidence, as surely your's will also be lacking in "micro-patina."

That evidence would be conclusive. Would you agree?

Where is it?

Are you not the least bit curious as to Mr. Rivett's forensic examinations of our respective fake M/70s, to show the absence of "micro-patina?"

I for one am still waiting for the forensic evidence.

[Jo Rivett]

.....If anyone thinks i am joking, i would gladly ship them the last one i have, in good condition, for Shipping and handling only. BUT, i will etch IMIT. into the back with a dremel. :

Member "rlimike" from the USA has taken me up on this offer, so please, no more mails, calls, SMS`s, MMS`s or parcels. Cheers

[Wim Vangossum]

Wim, as to the HJ M1/70s, we sent to Jo Rivett, I requested in my cover letter evidence or the lack thereof of "micro-patina" proving or disproving actual "use" on my example.

If "micro-patina" cannot be "humanly faked," per Jo's book, my M1/70 should show no evidence, as surely your's will also be lacking in "micro-patina."

That evidence would be conclusive. Would you agree?

Where is it?

Are you not the least bit curious as to Mr. Rivett's forensic examinations of our respective fake M/70s, to show the absence of "micro-patina?"

I for one am still waiting for the forensic evidence.

My knowledge about micro patina is limited. In fact we have to buy a microscope and study days after days if we want fully understand what Jo is exactly seeing. He is doing this for a few years now and try us to explain what he see. But could we see it? We have not the experience to make a correct analyse of the enlarged pictures. It's like a docter who shows us an X-ray of our body and explain the problems but without medical background it is not easy to see what problems the docter is talking about.

What I understand is that micro patina is a surface with all kind of tiny nicks and scuff marks created by wear of the badge. The marks are extremely small, have no exact pattern and are not visible with the naked eye.
Most important is that they not may be confused with artificial ageing - which will show a certain pattern- or with little flaws created by faults in the die.

Regards, Wim

[Gary Symonds]

My knowledge about micro patina is limited. In fact we have to buy a microscope and study days after days if we want fully understand what Jo is exactly seeing. He is doing this for a few years now and try us to explain what he see. But could we see it? We have not the experience to make a correct analyse of the enlarged pictures. It's like a docter who shows us an X-ray of our body and explain the problems but without medical background it is not easy to see what problems the docter is talking about.

What I understand is that micro patina is a surface with all kind of tiny nicks and scuff marks created by wear of the badge. The marks are extremely small, have no exact pattern and are not visible with the naked eye.
Most important is that they not may be confused with artificial ageing - which will show a certain pattern- or with little flaws created by faults in the die.

Regards, Wim

Wim, you are finally getting close. I have to assume you read author Rivett's book, The Party Badge. The pictures in the book of raised maker marks which are reproductions are pristine, and raised maker marks on originals, that show "use" show the slings and barbs of being used. Pretty easy to understand. Your eyes do not deceive you.

What part of that do you have a problem?

What I don't understand is why you, who also sent author Rivett your example of an HJ M1/70, are not demanding with me the results of his forensic examination.

Why would you need a microscope, when author Rivett has done it for us?

Author Rivett just refuses to publish the the findings and results of his "evidence."

Wim, can you accept that?