Announcement

**ETN** · 10-18-2013, 09:27 AM

My understanding is the same, the number on the back is only sequential number applied to all stick pins produced. That number could have been recorded in an SS member's files, but the number is not a the membership number.

Hence the trouble with matching up pins to recipients.

**ErichS** · 10-18-2013, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by ETN View Post

My understanding is the same, the number on the back is only sequential number applied to all stick pins produced. That number could have been recorded in an SS member's files, but the number is not a the membership number.

Hence the trouble with matching up pins to recipients.

ETN is correct.

**juoneen** · 10-18-2013, 06:58 PM

So the next progression is to figure out where/how to cross reference the numbers to the owners , or , maybe they never kept track by this number....us purple hearts are also like that with the edge number versions . They did have some very unusual ss numbers , not to mention party numbers .

**Br. James** · 10-19-2013, 08:18 AM

Thanks very much for your responses, gents...we are all of the same mind here, along with John Pearson!

Juoneen does open an interesting question, as well. I would assume that the SS Stickpin was a non-essential option that a member could purchase for civilian dress, so there was not the same need to keep record of to whom each pin went as there was with an item like the SS TK Ring. Perhaps this number on the reverse of each SS Stickpin simply served the purpose of inventory control for retail dealers...a way of trying to prevent or at least make more difficult the pilferage of such a small item from a shop?

Br. James

**Jo Rivett** · 10-19-2013, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Thanks very much for your responses, gents...we are all of the same mind here, along with John Pearson!

Juoneen does open an interesting question, as well. I would assume that the SS Stickpin was a non-essential option that a member could purchase for civilian dress,........... from a shop?
Br. James

James, you could not "buy" the SS-Zivilabzeichen. It was awarded. It was not available in "shops" or available for "purchase".

**JoeW** · 10-19-2013, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Today's offerings by Carsten Baldes includes a fine example of an SS Stickpin by Hoffstätter, bearing a five-digit number stamped to the pin's reverse which is described as the "owner's number." A number of years ago I was discussing this number with my friend John Pearson, who collects SS stickpins, and John's opinion was that the number on the reverse was the issue control number, not the person’s membership number. Does anyone here have any further thoughts on this question?

Cheers,

Br. James

Br. James, perhaps Carsten was being coy with his description as the number was 'technically' the "owner's number". I have done a bit of research over the years documenting the regulations concerning the issue of the rings. They were not awarded. They were available for purchase through the SS by the SS member in two grade: the Hoffstätter and the Gahr. Applications had to be submitted and payments were received by the SS-Personalamt and pins were dispatched. But every pin number was recorded on the owner's SS file card where there was a location for that purpose. So it was the "owner's number". I have recorded dozens of member/numbers. It had often been thought in the past by collector's that the number on the pin was the membership number. I have found that only in one or two instances, this is the case. One number comes to mind is that of Kurt Daluege.

I discussed this with John Pepera many years ago. An English collector who started another web site has made quite and effort to research this subject.

Perhaps John Pearson meant the same thing when he described it as a control number. But the numbers were recorded by the SS-Personalamt as to whom each pin was issued. And in some instances, the numbers were reissued. I found such a case when examining the SS officer file of a member who had died of a heart attack.

**Jo Rivett** · 10-19-2013, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Br. James, perhaps Carsten was being coy with his description as the number was 'technically' the "owner's number". I have done a bit of research over the years documenting the regulations concerning the issue of the rings. They were not awarded. They were available for purchase through the SS by the SS member in two grade: the Hoffstätter and the Gahr.

Joe, 2 different manufactures are known as "Grades"? Is there evidence that SS-mem could opt for one or the other? Or that they were "awarded" for different reasons? or that there even was any difference between a Gahr & Hoffstätter marked badge.
Translated below, (Image link to snippet) from The RZMMtbl. Ausgabe 4, 1934, page 5.
________________________________
SS-Zivilabzeichen
There is cause, to once more draw your attention to the following. In contrast to the SA-Zivilabzeichen, the SS-Zivilabzeichen cannot be purchased. These badges are awarded to SS men after a period of 6 months (After they had applied for one).... etc etc..
________________________________
The phrase "cannot be purchased" and the word "Awarded" are written with gaps between them, to highlight them.

Joe, if you have done research about these, then surely you found the (more than 1) mention of these in the RZMMtbltr. no? If this "practice" changed over time, then fine, elaborate, but to just not mention this... and state the exact opposite? when we clearly see what the early regulations for these were?

**JoeW** · 10-19-2013, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Josef Fueß View Post

Joe, 2 different manufactures are known as "Grades"? Is there evidence that SS-mem could opt for one or the other? Or that they were "awarded" for different reasons? or that there even was any difference between a Gahr & Hoffstätter marked badge.
Translated below, (Image link to snippet) from The RZMMtbl. Ausgabe 4, 1934, page 5.
________________________________
SS-Zivilabzeichen
There is cause, to once more draw your attention to the following. In contrast to the SA-Zivilabzeichen, the SS-Zivilabzeichen cannot be purchased. These badges are awarded to SS men after a period of 6 months (After they had applied for one).... etc etc..
________________________________
The phrase "cannot be purchased" and the word "Awarded" are written with gaps between them, to highlight them.

Joe, if you have done research about these, then surely you found the (more than 1) mention of these in the RZMMtbltr. no? If this "practice" changed over time, then fine, elaborate, but to just not mention this... and state the exact opposite? when we clearly see what the early regulations for these were?

I believe we are writing/saying the same thing but differ as to semantics. No, I don't believe I have any of the RZM pronouncements concerning the SS-Zivilabzeichen as the RZM was not concerned with the production standards or distribution as you well know. My documentation is derived from SS pronouncements discovered in varies file of the Records of the RF-SS und Chef d. deutschen polizei T-175 in the NARA.

Perhaps grades has too many meanings. The differences between the Gahr & Hoffstätter pins was confined to quality and price. The option remained to the SS Mann to pay less for the Hoffstätterpin or more for the Gahr version. My use of the term grade referred to quality.

The RZM statement essentially states my explanation above. I indicated an application had to be made for the badge. The verb verleihen has several meanings in this context. You choose awarded which I associate with an award without asking. I stated they were presented after application, which to me is more like granting the pin to the SS Mann. But in any case, the RZM was incorrect, as the SS Mann had to buy the pin after submitting his application. Perhaps the RZM was remarking that the SS-Zivilabzeichen could not be purchased through RZM outlets or on the open market. That is correct. They had to be purchased by applying members only from within the SS.

**Jo Rivett** · 10-19-2013, 11:03 AM

The RZMmtbltr. mention it on a few occasions, and yes once specifically stating that the RZM does not have anything to do with them, and that they cannot be obtained through the RZM, but once more, only verliehen.
Joe, i am not playing with words here and interpreting "Verliehen" the way i want, the snippet i posted above clearly says.. Nicht käuflich erworben werden können.... Cannot be obtained through payment - buying - purchasing ....

If the RZM was wrong here, i do not have an opinion on, but what they state, is pretty easy to interpret and correctly understand. If your SS-research and the Reichsführer-SS notes and files that you have state something else, then so be it, i am nothing more than the messenger, supporting my claim that they could not be purchased, with documented evidence, stating that they could not be purchased.

And thanks to this, you now have additional info on a subject you "researched" that you did not have before

whether you agree with it or not.

**JoeW** · 10-19-2013, 03:57 PM

Josef, I do not mean you translated the word to fit your meaning. I am just remarking that verleihen can mean awarded or presented. But the connotation for awarding to me indicates the item is given for merit or some similar result, not as a result of paying the piper. Which leads us to my statement that is in apparent conflict with the documentation that you provided. And which I might add, I thank you for adding to my files on the subject.

I frankly hadn't visited the subject for some time and of course forgot that the applications went to the SS-Hauptamt as I read in my notes, not the SS-Personalamt. And Brother James, I found that I had exchanged views with John Pearson back in 2002. Time flies of course.

But getting back to the documentation supporting my statement, I provide this excerpt from the Directive for the Application for and Presentation of The SS Civilian Badge (15.1.36)

Of interest is the fact the applicant could opt for the normal grade of pin from Hoffstater or go for the nicer silver model from Gahr. But if one lost their pin. The only option for replacement was the more expensive Gahr silver version.

Josef, perhaps it is as you have suggested, that the RZM report and earlier procedure in force for the SS-ZA; ie. no payment. Or, perhaps they were incorrect to begin with or meaning only that the SS-ZA could not be bought through normal commercial channels. I will search the files to look for earlier pronouncements.

**Br. James** · 10-19-2013, 06:14 PM

What a fascinating exchange of experiences and knowledge here! I'm privileged to be witness to it, from two respected veteran collectors and historians.

I hadn't known that there was another version or example of the SS Stickpin by Gahr; the only one I've ever seen or read mention of is the Hoffstätter...which I have one of in my collection. (Awkward sentence...!) Does anyone have any pix of the Gahr piece to share?

Again, a fascinating exchange! WAF at its finest!

Br. James

**JoeW** · 10-20-2013, 01:51 AM

Br. James, if no one comes up with an image of one, I will dig out the photos John Pepera sent me of his when we worked on an article on the subject for "The Military Advisor" some years ago. It is still in draft, as I couldn't pull the trigger and finish it.

**SiPo** · 10-20-2013, 02:56 AM

Here's my Gahr.

Attached Files

IMGP6317.jpg (139.0 KB, 180 views)

**SiPo** · 10-20-2013, 03:07 AM

.... and in its box.

Announcement

SS Stickpin

SS Stickpin

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread