brooch with sort of sonnenrad?

[Capt. R]

Yes hard to see but there is an A there. Made in that city then?

[Capt. R]

Any ideas on these Nordic designs? Both found in Germany.

[RonR]

This brooch likely does not have much to do with the intent of this thread, but it is a brooch from the period....


....

[Capt. R]

Wow thanks Ron for sharing this!

Look familiar??.......

[Carsten135]

heya cap

Its a really nice Collection of broshes you have cap, i must compliment that

Arround the two latest badges you show in post 47 imo highly points of a Celtic design rather then a viking design the first badge whit the cross and spirals, well crosses was used by the vikings but very late in that timeperiod and the shape of your cross says from the templar knights and forward ( arround 1200 ) to present time. Christianity has changed the nature of his journey from the sunny and dry Palestine to the cold North and The Christian missionary came to the north on a different mentality then in the south.
At the Vikings were the ideal warrior, and the goal was victory. Therefore "the suffering Christ" on the cross is not endorsed by the Vikings and Christian missionaries put in place emphasis on "the victorious Christ." as shown here ( pic below ) on one of our runestones not far from where is was born so a old acquaintance for me.

the last Brooch on the image which you have in your Collection also point to the Celtic heritage ( or a mix of both cultures ) and to me is a fertility symbol with the idea of a pure race reflected in sun symbols and spirals which are known to be a human oldest spiritual fertility symbol.

So imo your badges in post 47 along whit the lastone scould be rather in the later germanic section then in the viking section of your Collection.

cheers mate

e2c90ab88d.jpg

[jabnus]

I think we are losing track here of the items we want to discuss and are slowly getting lost in history. Yes, i can't believe i say this myself (being a history teacher), but the last page of replies is going in a direction that is not very much benefitting the research of brooches with runic or similar symbols on them that were used up to 1945.

Carsten sure has a point with the whole ancient/pagan Germanic/Viking/Christian/Celtic background, but im sorry to have to say it does not necessary mean that it relates in any way to THE RUNIC AND SONNENRAD brooches that are finally gaining some interest and understanding among collectors of Third Reich ephemera.

By going back to ancient history one tends to easily get lost and overlook the period that is most important for the background of these brooches of the period up to 1945. This period lays not necessary in the time before BC, or somewhere in the middle ages, but mainly in the period of 1800 onwards, most importantly the approximately 40 - 50 years before WWII.

The brooches in post #47 are for me typical 1920's jugendstill/art deco brooches with a spiralsymbol. Very nice in their own right, and maybe, just maybe, purposely formed after ancient history symbolism, but definatly not related in any way to the Third Reich. Might women of the Third Reich have wore them? Yes sure, the same as my mother and sister still occasionaly wear my great-grandmothers jewelry from way before 1900 too. But does that make them WWII period? In my opinion not.

So, history is fine, but we have to keep in mind WHAT we want to research or collect. If we don't focus on that we will loose the bit of understanding that is finally emerging here on the forum, and then start to call each and every brooch with sunspiral a WWII brooch. They simply are not!

best regards,
Gaston

[jabnus]

RonR, once again a great forumpost! I love these photo's with brooches in wear and this is a beauty!


But... is it a typical WWII related brooch? In other words, is it a typical brooch from the period of lets say 1930 to 1945? In my opinion not. And here it gets interesting.

Before going further into this, the brooch in Ron's photo, and the example as shown by Don, is a typical "Trachtenbrosche", a brooch worn often by farmers women or women when dressed in formal/traditional German clothing. If anyone from the Netherlands reads this, we have over here the same with e.g traditional clothing from the province of Zeeland or the city of Volendam.


The brooch is for me hard to date, it can be made any time from 1900 (maybe older?) untill present day. These brooches are also still today in 2014 still being worn by women who (occasionally) wear traditional clothing for e.g festivities.

Back to the brooch in question. Yes there is some (farmers) releted sunwheel symbolism, but you have to know quite a bit of it to see it. I find this quite a "neutral" brooch, although on the other hand it's obvious what it is. Please find hereunder one of my brooches. The symbolism on that is much more obvious: you can see a "wonderknot" symbol (quite a lot used before 1945, especially also by national socialists in the Netherlands) and sunwheel symbolism. This brooch is also a typical tradional (farmers) female brooch and as such displays symbolism in use more often just before 1945. There exist numerous variations on these brooches. I would not dare to call them "period" WWII though. The symbolism and characters are very very close to runic and sunwheel symbolism though.

My guess is that the woman in Ron's photo is wearing a traditional/farmers brooch. It's the first time i see such a picture together with a German uniform in one and the same picture, very interesting and it proves that they were also worn in the WWII period, but definately not exclusively!!!

best regards,
Gaston

[Carsten135]

hey there gaston


yer gaston history can sometime be biting back by the time used on it, in wich means less collecting time too and saves money

I do see this problem very clear whit what belongs to what? and the message you give by saying its not related whit the SS and in that i give you my 100% agreement, i got the very same problem whit the early swastica badges i have been studdyed some years now in wich are related to the very same problem. yer its pretty confusing in the end but instead of saying whats the problem then it might be more soutable to say whats the roots to the problem.

And that where you hit the point on the timeperiod of the badges gaston, actually meny of the badges was made long before Hitlers ideoligy even had a slight influencial way to them wich was more or less visual arround 1930 so a very late germanic time or pre nazism as i perfer. the evolution on nationalism can easy be confusing becurse most people connect the past whit the present timeperiod and evolution on nationalism ends whit the nazism in germany. So basicly collectors sees things backwords.

i id made a few Words arround nationalism and some of the connections to that period in wich i had been stalking for some time now can be seen from the napolion wars aprox. 1810 and to the time where hitler got influence arround 1930 or in other Words one monster eats another. So a very large timeperiod whit antisemetic retoric and fixating on race pureness slowly Building up over 100 years whit ending in the nazi timeperiod as we know it.

you might already have seen it but heres the link to some of my studdies just follow the path i hate redundansy

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=752427


i do agree arround the last 3 badges, they might or highly like be jugendstile badges in wich can be mirrored in meny diffrent cultures and imo from arround the 20 ties, here they are fertillity badges but they can easely be more local whit its specifik interpitation.

cheers

[jabnus]

I spent the last hours going through your old posts and can not believe what nonsense i just read. Im hesitating to bump up and post in each and every of those old turnerbundtopics and post out your mistakes to prevent them from harming new collectors in the future, as for sure your posts do only do harm to this hobby and add NOTHING of real knowledge and only spread false presumptions.

Having seen those topics i understand your replies in this topic now too, you have no idea what you're talking about. I read the posts on the previous page when being on holiday and almost forgot that on first glance i thought then you only made beginners mistakes, but now after reading your posting history and new replies on this page i understand that the problem is much bigger. It's bad enough that Thorsten braunhemd is in each and every cultural topic spreading nonsense, but at least he only pretends he doesn't know anything and only spreads lies because he's a thief. The forum is finally looking through those lies but it's too much if another member starts posting such wrong information. What your problem is i do not know but i suggest you first read a few historybooks as the "knowledge" you spread about the swastika character and now also here in this topic regarding other characters and history is plain wrong, false, full with mistakes, full with presumptions you've made in your mind from short google excerpts without any proper research, and further there are only wrong and false phantasy idea's.

You make posts like post #39 and present yourself as if you know what you talk about regarding runes, but it is all complete nonsense. Any student of this subject can easily see through this, but unfortunately 99% of the WAF community is unaware of this matter. Only recently have these topics like this been appearing, topics in which step by very small step the community is learning what these items and the symbols on them are. Your replies, either in the turnerbundtopics, or now here in this topic, are harming these collectingarea's a lot as each and every topic you make is without any factual real knowledge and only spreads false, wrong and a totally by you made up history. Please refrain yourself from posting and have the deceny to let the community learn factual knowledge instead of your wrong doings. Start reading books, learn history and spend the next 10 or 20 years to REALLY learn and study these subjects.


Regarding your last post, only the last sentence is ontopic (the rest is nonsense completely in line with the nonsense in the turnerbund topic and god knows how many topics more!) and is plain wrong too:

i do agree arround the last 3 badges, they might or highly like be jugendstile badges in wich can be mirrored in meny diffrent cultures and imo from arround the 20 ties, here they are fertillity badges but they can easely be more local whit its specifik interpitation.

No you don't agree, you wrote in each and every reply something different and clearly had and have no clue what you talk about. If your posting history shows one thing it is that you have a totally wrong idea about history and even more so about symbolism and it's development in the past 200 years. Yet, this doesn't stop you from posting your false phantasy's and spread your own dreamt idea about the history of characters and relation to nazism (SIC!).

The three badge posted by Don are for starters not the same and most probably not even from the same time period and the trachtenbrosche is definately not a jugendstil or art deco item. Your ideas about different cultures or timestamps can be read in the turnerbundtopics, they are wrong and each and every historybook will agree with that. Im not even going to try to explain why. Pick up any random modern history book with footnotes, that deals with Germany and you will have an answer.

I have also no idea what you mean with "fertillity" badges, this is yet another amazing mistake. You do it all the time. Please stop yourself from posting nonsense, you are doing nothing but harm to this area of collecting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lastly, i read in other topics that you find it rude when someone posts out you are wrong. My reply above here is not meant to be rude. The reason for this reply is that i hope that future readers will look into your old posts (just follow the links you posted) and first read what nonsense you post. They will then see that the last 2 pages of this topic are ruined as well. Posting facts is something different as posting opinions by someone who has no clue what he talks about. This is not rude, this is the truth and yes, it will probably hurt and be hard. You are however an adult and brought this over yourself. Unbelievable you even dare to point others to those topics.

[Capt. R]

What era is my brass brooch in post #43 or is it too difficult to tell?

The 2 in #47 are from the 20s or 30s and the cross has markings which I will post soon to help maybe identify it.

[jabnus]

Hi Don,

#43: I can't tell for sure, construction points towards from before 1945, but not sure.

Yes the spiral brooch can be 1920's or early 1930's, but these are still being made today too!!! Reverse markings will probably tell more.

best regards,
Gaston

[Dmv]

This thread derailed after post 34...

[Capt. R]

Closer pic

[Capt. R]

The reverse of the cross and spiral brooch. I do enjoy finding these Nordic looking examples even if they predate ww2.

[Carsten135]

well gaston as history teacher you scould know better, but ill guess studdying is not of you main field arround what happend before the nazis did show up on the stage, well that up to you mate and your right to your opinion. i see you do need to read my post more carefully too. i have studdyed the runes since i was 8 so i dont need your visdom in that area.


you can search the information yourself but i recomend that you do it on german, otherwise i dont think you can get it all. well let me help you :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96s...her_Turnerbund

http://www.aeiou.at/aeiou.encyclop.d/d341176.htm


cheers