brooch with sort of sonnenrad?

[Belten]

By the way, the copyright for the online image posted in this thread either belongs to the original creator (whoever took the photograph) or is public domain. The person who took the photo for the online auction has no claim to it, as the image is considered a two-dimensional object; the reproduction of such does not create a new copyright unless the image is significantly altered.

[Michael Fay]

digital two-edged sword

Well, the fact is that the purchaser has no legal right to the image whatsoever (unless he also took the original photograph), and beyond that, it was published online for all to see, on the website from which it was purchased. I'm sure that no ill will was intended, and it seems to me that the person who posted the photo here was doing so for the benefit of his fellow collectors. Whenever any image is posted online, for sale or for any other reason, it can scarcely be argued that anyone without the benefit of copyright protection has some claim to it.

I stand by my original statement. While I understand the frustrations, it's a natural side effect of anything posted for sale online, and its being published here does not lessen the worth or impact of such an image.

I never assumed you or anyone else will change their views. Further, I am only trying to share ideas that I feel were not being fully represented in this thread.
Just don't believe this is every persons view or every nations specific rules/laws on ownership (or other legal ramifications -and more to my way of thinking :ethical /moral points of view and ramifications)
As for ill will...who is implying that? Not I, and, it is completely beside my points.
I find it an odd occurrence that so many seem to be unable to admit this is some people's point of view or that less images are being posted as a result.

Many on WAF have already stated they now post less photos and info due to the issues we are discussing.

[Belten]

Well, what I referenced earlier is German copyright law. In the U.S., anything published prior to 1976 with no copyright claim (that is, a name or credit on the photo) is public domain. Anything with a copyright is public domain if it was published prior to 1923. Something that was never published is considerably more difficult and murky.

But this is Germany, so the image is most likely in the public domain, and will be for certain in a couple of years.

At any rate, I completely agree regarding differences of opinion.

[Capt. R]

Some variations of trifos to revive this thread.

The salty corroded trifos on the right looks to be made by the very same craftsman as the swas brooch on the far right.

[Carsten135]

hey all

Its very nice broches you Guys have especially gastons Collection seems pretty nice i wish i had such brosche Collection anyway really nice collected.

Arround the runes.... well these symbols has been used from the vikings to the Greeks and is some of the oldest symbols used and the symbols also differs in what they stands for depending on what culture we are talking about.

The combination between Nordic runes and german culture was in high seat for the nazis and was reused for there own bennefit whitin the rasse ideoligy and for me they serve as buildingmateriel between the briks of ideoligy/mytheoligy and people. we see the symbol used in the Danish and Dutch SS regiments too and Again the broches has nothing to do whit the SS, they proberly used them too but not directly connected.

When i see the use of these symbols among collectors i do understand that it is pretty confusing arround the symbols so lets try break it Down so it might be understandable a bit. The Word trifos is Greek ( oh no not Again ) and Means = tree legged ( streight legged ) in wich can be seen whit some logic and we as collector maybee aytomaticly shift in a combination of Greek, Nordic and german cultures opinions on the runes.
Because there were, and still are, many hundreds of runic symbols, their exact number has still not been finally determined. However, out of this mass only about thirty came into use as letters in the sense of our modern writing symbols. So at this time, two main groups result from these script symbols, the letter runes and the hieroglyph runes, both of which were preserve in their unique ways, and both of which went along their own special paths of development after the separation had been completed. All of these symbols were runes, but today only the letter runes carry that designation, while the hieroglyph runes from this point forward were not recognised as actual script symbols. It may be noted that the word hieroglyph was already important in early Aryan as hiroglif and it already had its meaning before the Greek language ever existed.
So basicly its not whitout significant that we see is as a symbol or a letter and before we mix all this together well only have to think its the Nordic and german culture mixed into a nazi Soup loaded whit ideoligy for there own bennefitt.

When i see the use from the nazi side i see 3 diffrent symbols ( trifos - vilfos and fylfos ) whitin the commenly used trifos Word symbols used by the SS, arbeitsgau and meny other branches whitin the ideolygi catagory. so basicly we are not talking arround varriation whitin trifos but combinations of these 3 classes.

When i look on the nazi use of my ancestors lettering and whit some irony say that theyll never be a viking

heres a pic of my very Humble Collection in wich bleec in the shaddow of yours, a vilfos and a fylfos so basicly most of your badges is actually fylfos if we keep the Words from that timeperiod its also described very nicely in the post 7.

cheers

IMG_0914.JPG

IMG_0896.JPG

[Capt. R]

Hello Carsten
Thanks for joining the discussion! And thanks for your photo contribution. Very nice.

[Carsten135]

hey cap no problem mate, always at service if so

I do recall that these brosches was on dispaly some time ago and as i see them they come as a Whole serie sold as civil badges like the whw, i did see a compleete serie made of silver from HANDWERK wich was damn nice so imo we are talking series from diffrent makers in diffrent kvality. anyway they are pretty collectable.

cheers

[Capt. R]

info on middle rune

Carsten
Can you help me understand the rune as pictured on the top brooch. What is the symbolism to this part death rune?
Thank you

[Carsten135]

heya cap

no probs mate, lets have a look on it.

well its quite a badge you show me on this paper of yours, but lets peel it Down in details and lets hear what it tells us.

First of all ill try combine the rune knowledge whit the known facts in wich you provide into this very mysterius World of nazi cultism. The badge you show me is whats called a bind rune, its a ligature of two or more runes. They are extremely rare in Viking Age inscriptions, but are seen in pre-Viking Age and in post-Viking Age Medieval inscriptions. In meny cases the bind runes was used as a talisman for whatever purpose, it could be war,sickness, power, weather etc.
So to make your badge just a bit understandable well have to se on the nazi side and how they managed the runes.

When i see there use of runes in wich the nazis was looking on our old nordic alphabet then I look in the texts on how they change the meaning and value and that quite a bit of a change but lets see the runes or in this case all the runes. ill set the Whole rune line here and then lets take them one by one. they are not nesserely set in order but seen as i discover them.

Ka+Fa+Yr+Is+Ar+Eh+Sol+Bar well thats your badge

lets have a look on the the Words for these runes, ill try not to be boring and only take the Words that matters or headlines instead of the whole defination that will take me weeks to explain. ill surely be more detailed if needed.

well now we got what we see and what we know so lets start whit the Ka rune in wich refer to the Yggdrasil ( weltbaum yggdrasil ) deine blut is den höchsten gott ( your blood is your highest gud ) or in short Words the tree of arian ancestors ( arisher volkstamm )
the Fa rune is : be crated ( be reborn pure )
the Yr rune is : liferules ( live by ) whit thinking on the ending ( bedenkt das ende ) i do belive meny see the rune as the dead rune in wich it also are used for but we have to see in what context its used.
the Is rune : ( on your text ) wille und macht ( superior ( masterrace ) and powerfull )
the Ar rune : urfyr der sonnengott selfsacrifice into the flames and transforms or reborn into a pure arien eagle.
the Eh rune : die ehe is die grundlage des volkes ( marrige is Foundation for the people ) die ehe ist der rauwurzel der arier basicly marrige is a holy thing for the nazis.
the Sol rune : heil und sieg ur-arrisher kampfruf ( ur-arien battleschouting ) pretty much like the sieg runen but differs a bit along whit or in there encouraged Words alaf sal fena ( all sun healing power of conscious ) as it Refers to in your book.
the Bar rune : your life stays in guds hands.

well hopefully you dont get headdaqe of this or my spelling yet but if i may set this badge into a sentens it would proberly say :

if you live by the liferules in a pure arien way, sacrifice yourself youll join the lifetree of pure arien ancestors where a wife will wait for you and when the powerfull sungud rise be reborn as a pure Victorius arien eagle. heil und sieg ( Victory )

well cap i hope you can use this terpitation for this badge based on knowledge and facts it might be refraced in another way but ill guess its pretty much what the badge stands for.

cheers mate

[Capt. R]

thank you!

Hey Carsten, thank you for a most detailed and interesting lesson! I really like how you sum it all up. So much symbolism in each of these pieces.

Here is my brooch. You can see it is much larger than it's companions! It must have been a treasured possession to its original owner. And I can tell you that I continue to enjoy it very much - even more so with your explanation!

[jabnus]

Hi,

I don't think i agree with everything being posted here, but (un)fortunately im at the moment on holiday and have no books with me, nor the time to type a long reply now, but if no one else responds in the meantime i'll try and respond next week longer.

Please do a forum search for "housemarks", they are often easily confused with bindrunes. The whole Viking to Greek to Arian to Nordic thinking i also see a bit different. The trifos character is e.g much older than "just" Greek or even "Arian" (as in Indo-Arian or even Iranian/Persian) meaning. Lot's of interpretations and even historical backgrounds, but if one focusses on those than the whole history should be taken in account, not "just" the Viking or whatever culture or time.

Trying to explain "just" the nazi background of a rune is probably easier than going all the way back to early history of mankind, another thing to take into consideration regarding particularly e.g the trifos (or whatever we name it) is that from about 1800 onwards it became in German culture a more popular character that was also used by such oraganisations as Der Wandervogel, that obviously existed in a time when the nazi's were not around.

Im very glad that more people are seeing that definately not all runic items are NS or SS items, the forum will in time really benefit from this insight.

More in a few days, i need to go now.

Best regards,
Gaston

[Carsten135]

hey there jabnus

well its is a discussing forum here so join the party and dont get a kick in the butt by your wife ok, no need for that well be here.

well mythology or mysterius will always could bee discussed and ill guess that one of the mysterius things too but looking on the timeperiod from 1900 ,well there you will see that most of the developed World was arroused by mythology and in some extend whit some fanatism, that goes for the nazis too.

Looking on the nazi system syntax there you will see that almost everything was stolen from other systems or civilisations so basicly how the infrastructure was combined and worked was polished or remade by the nazis for own purpose.
so very Little was invented on that area, that dosent go for the more "hard" areas as the tecknical where they was in a leading role almost to the end so they where much more functionel then intelligent.
So basicly your right gaston where do we as collector find the red line trought all this mumble jumble becurse everything in this World is based on deseption even today from the wife taking makeup on to look diffrent or you taking a deoderant to hide your body oder or making the food right other wise youll not eat it etc to the very big things as the systems failing on you whit lies that creates a lot of innocent victims so basicly we will always create a prison for others and if thats not enough well create one for ourself. This kind of human behavior was the main field for the nazis in wich they did take 100% advantage arround and if you tell a lie often enough then people will start beliving in that so basicly the nazis did make a counter part in seeking the pureness in a filthy way so of speak.

To get back on the track on this badge or whats its called, as you can see on my Humble Collection ist not in high priority for me and looking on your badges i can see you Guys are much more dedicated to these badges in wich make the truth even more important especially on a field where its blurey and everything is symboliced in diffrent cultures.

Arround this badge of caps i can say that the information i got by the book of his is highly pointing on runes and also what system they did use, personnaly i perfer to call it the names from that timeperiod otherwise the confusing will be total, as you can see in the book its pretty sparesome information i have to Work whit and before i Waste more time on analyzing a badge and i wish that if someone has more information arround it will step forward to inlight the truth in wich we all has a common goal inhere. So imm looking forward to see if your books can inlight it even more

cheers

[Capt. R]

2 non-runic brooches

These 2 I wanted to discuss....

Not runic and may not be from the third Reich at all. They are definitely ethnically designed. Possibly jugenstil or 1920's / 30's. The warrior brooch is very large!
The other one is brass and marked "Handarbeit" and "Scaffenburg" - probably the maker mark.

Any discussion and comments are wanted! I did not pay much for either one and like them both regardless of the time period although I can tell that they are def NOT modern pieces. They seem old to me.

[Thorsten B.]

Trying to explain "just" the nazi background of a rune is probably easier than going all the way back to early history of mankind, another thing to take into consideration regarding particularly e.g the trifos (or whatever we name it) is that from about 1800 onwards it became in German culture a more popular character that was also used by such oraganisations as Der Wandervogel, that obviously existed in a time when the nazi's were not around.

Im very glad that more people are seeing that definately not all runic items are NS or SS items, the forum will in time really benefit from this insight.

Another insight is that - just to mention this as one example - the artist Klara Ege who was a member of the Wandervogel was responsible for the creation and design of the SS-Sippenschrein of SS-Obergruppenführer Schmauser in Mainz in 1940.

So there are without any doubt traditional and artistic connections and influences from the Wandervogel directly to the design of SS cult and religious pieces.

[Thorsten B.]

These 2 I wanted to discuss....

Not runic and may not be from the third Reich at all. They are definitely ethnically designed. Possibly jugenstil or 1920's / 30's. The warrior brooch is very large!
The other one is brass and marked "Handarbeit" and "Scaffenburg" - probably the maker mark.

Any discussion and comments are wanted! I did not pay much for either one and like them both regardless of the time period although I can tell that they are def NOT modern pieces. They seem old to me.

I bet my ass that the brass one is marked "Aschaffenburg" - maybe you can check that and let us know.