1926 - 1936 Berlin Badge.. Good or Bad??

[Gary Symonds]

7

[Gary Symonds]

6

[Gary Symonds]

5

[Gary Symonds]

1945 5th edition.

[Gary Symonds]

3

[Gary Symonds]

1943 4th edition.

[Gary Symonds]

Gentleman:
In my opinion, Chris Lee's Berlin Gau Badge is an original. I submit the following evidence. In Dr. Doehle's 4th edition-1943, he depicts the Berlin Gau Badge on page 76 with a ROUND HEADED EAGLE. I have posted the actual picture of an original 4th edition, plus the picture at page 76, a round headed eagle.

I have also included the 5th edition 1945 reprint which shows at page 86 the same round headed eagle.

I have posted a picture of my paint and zinc 1926-1936 Berlin Badge which is the same as Chris Lee's "fake". Please observe that this paint and zinc badge is obviously an original. We as collectors know that after Fritz Todt's death in the aircrash in February 1942, when Albert Speer took over, he stopped production of enamel and tombak badges, to be replaced by paint and zinc. We rarely if ever see reproductions in paint and zinc. Paint is too labor intensive and zinc is to difficult a metal to work with. If we see a post 1942 badge in enamel and tombak, that is a red flag that that badge is a repro, since the originals were not in enamel or tombak.

I have included pictures of a round headed eagle in enamel and tombak which was made before 1942. The reverse has the L. Christian Lauer maker mark on the back, the same maker that made the 1936 Honor Badge.

In my opinion, sometime after the war started, the Berlin Gau redesigned the HONOR badge, making it a one piece strike, without issue numbers or rivets, changed the eagle from a FLAT HEADED SA EAGLE, to a round pigeon headed version. In my opinion these were given to worthy Berliners, not as a veteran membership badge for early NSDAP membership in the Berlin Gau, as awarded in 1936, but for work that Berliner's performed for the war effort.

The proof is the ROUND HEADED EAGLE, in Doehle's book. When he was preparing the 4th edition during 1942, the artist was provided with whatever badges were on hand to draw. By that date, the artist was provided NOT with the 1936 SA flat headed eagle HONOR badge, but the redesigned wartime badge for help with the war effort.

Some of you may say that the artist in the 1943 edition was taking "artistic license", when he changed the eagle's head. This is almost unimaginable for an official Party publication. To dispell this, Dr. Doehle had two years to redo the Berlin Badge for the 1945 5th edition. As can be seen in my posts, it is the same badge.

I believe that there were TWO Berlin Badges. The Honor Badge awarded in 1936 for veteran membership, and a 1939-1940 redesigned badge for worthy Berliner's who provided important service for the war effort. A round pigeon headed eagle initially in enamel and tombak, and then after 1942 in paint and zinc. This redesign of the eagle head was to make it clear and obvious that the round headed eagle was NOT to be confused with the 1936 Honor Badge.

Therefore, Chris Lee's badge, being made out of zinc and paint, though with a replaced pin, is the SAME as my paint and zinc badge and my earlier enamel and tombak. Nobody as I have said reproduces badges in paint and zinc.

Therefore, here is the evidence that not only his badge is an original, but so is my enamel and tombak badge and the paint and zinc badge.

Gentleman, we are dealing with two different badges, which amount to comparing apples and oranges.

You opinions are sought.
Gary

[Chris Lee]

Badge

Here are a few close up shots. The badge is stamped and quite solid.

[Chris Lee]

pics

pics

[Chris Lee]

badge

Gary,
Thanks!!

[Max_Porter]

Hello,

in my opinion the badge of Chris Lee is a simple quality fake of Souval, Wien, for tourists after the war. Not more - you can read the "L58".

Both badges Gary Symonds is showing are fakes, too. One with the faked maker mark is of better quality but not good enough, the second one is more worse.

The "rounded head" in the Doehle is absolutly no proof for the originality of three bad faked badges.

The Gau Berlin badge was a very high award to early party members and so: Not in that quality!

Sorry but I personally have NO doubts.


Best Regards

Max_Porter

[Gary Symonds]

Gentleman:

I understand that our fellow WAF Life Member Craig Gottlieb is writting a new book on Gau Badges. A reference certainly needed in this hobby.

Perhaps Mr. Gottlieb could look at the evidence that I have posted in this thread, and provide the membership with his expert opinion as to my contention that there were two different Berlin Gau badges issued during the Third Reich.
Gary

[Gary Symonds]

Gentleman:

Before this thread leaves page 1, a few comments please. At the beginning of the thread WAF member Chris Lee posted pictures of his Berlin Gau Badge. To a man, every member said it was a "fake", no question about it.

To prove this a member even posted a picture of a 1936 Berlin Gau Honor Badge, unquestionably original.

I posted hard evidence that Chris Lee's badge, was an original. I posted pictures of my paint and zinc badge at posts #16, #17, displaying a paint and zinc badge, that any member with the slightest experience in Third Reich badge collecting would have to say based on the paint, based on the slate grey of the zinc, based on the reverse fittings, it matched all examples of paint and zinc badges of the late war period. If the zinker was real, and the enamel and tombak example that I posted had the same die, and this was confirmed in Doehle's books, all the evidence fell into place.

The example that Chris Lee posted, was also a "zinker", though with all of the offending zinc grey painted over, front and rear. Essentially "putting lip stick on the pig." It is still the same round pigeon headed eagle. Another question never resolved is why would anybody make the repair seen on Mr. Lee's badge, if it was a reproduction?

I showed that Doehle's books had the same pigeon headed eagle. The only member to respond, Max Porter got it backward. The Doehle pictures do not confirm the originality of my badges, but the other way around. My badges and Chris Lee's explain why the artist in 1942, drew a round head, and not the flat headed SA Eagle.

Not a man who said "fake", has challenged this evidence, that there are in reality, two different Berlin Badges, a flat headed SA eagle granted in 1936, and a round pigeon headed eagle made sometime there after.

In February of this year I made a 250 round trip to show Craig Gottlieb my evidence for consideration in his forth coming Gau Badge book. Craig told me he was going to take these badges to the SOS.

I received my badges back about three weeks later, and no explanation as to his opinion or anybody at the SOS. I chased Mr. Gottleib down for three weeks thereafter. Always being put off that he "couldn't talk."

In the end, Craig refused to even talk to me let alone provide his opinion that yes indeed, there appear to be two different badges. Or, the zinker was made by the Brits in the 70s or those evil Paki's are at it again, and my badges are reproductions. Nothing! To this day.

I made the same offer for his opinion in this thread, and he still cannot bring himself to provide the WAF his opinion on my evidence.

Mr. Gottleib has previously provided an excellent reference book as to SS Honor Rings. In my opinion, any person reading this book, which showed the die flaws in original rings, knowing what these flaws are and where to look, would never need to spend $250 for a COA from Don Boyle. Craig should be complemented for this work.

However, when his new book is published, and my evidence and Chris Lee's evidence as to the existence of two different badges, is ignored, as I fully expect, this amounts to intellectual dishonesty. The members of the WAF who believe their "lying eyes," and are capable of thinking for themselves, a rare commodity in this hobby, as to my evidence, may just question Craig's believability as to his "research" for his chapter on the Berlin Gau Badges.

The absence of any factual response from the members who claimed "fake" and the absence of Craig's response either when personally presented with this evidence, or my public challenge to respond, amounts to what in the law is known as an "adoptive admission." In other words, what I am saying in the absence of any refutation from those who would be expected to refute my opinion, means these members agree with me, and Chris Lee. What I am contending, that there are two different badges, is correct. They have "adopted" my opinion, by their silence.

If any member has a response other than, "I don't agree", please present your proof to the WAF membership.
Gary

[petopoint]

medals and decs

I was basing my opinion in reference to "Medals @ decorations of TR" 1943 where the badge shown does not have the 'Berlin' portion of the badge painted over. Maybe as you say with the '1945' edition it is a late war provided or even replacement badge.It does state that as of the 1943 edition that app. Only thirty of them were awarded in gold.

[Gary Symonds]

I was basing my opinion in reference to "Medals @ decorations of TR" 1943 where the badge shown does not have the 'Berlin' portion of the badge painted over. Maybe as you say with the '1945' edition it is a late war provided or even replacement badge.It does state that as of the 1943 edition that app. Only thirty of them were awarded in gold.

petopoint:
You are still missing the point. The thirty members who received the gold Honor Badge and the more numerous members who received the 1936 silver badge, were issued a different badge. As I have said, you are comparing apples to oranges. The artist drew what was presented to him. Somebody was asleep at the switch, and did not realize that Doehle was actually puiblishing a different badge. Which "looked" like the 1936 badge, and indeed only 30 gold Honor Badges were issued, but these are a different badge, so what if 30 gold were given in 1936? We are dealing with two different badges. The evidence for this is there.

This is really not difficult to understand.