Early swastica badges

[D Funk]

I have a large collection of Party pins and The RZM mark and Ges Gesh are just fine compared to the other examples. Very nice badge!

[pcord74]

raised Z

here is one discussion about the titled / raised Z beginning on page 2 and onto page 3 http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...=450425&page=2&
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...endorff&page=3
and this pin http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=508285 looks quite similar to the one in question that I am mentioning

Just an observation

[panzerguy]

bad party pin

pic from thread #25 compared to known fake:

http://www.mein-img.de/images/fakeasphuck1.JPG

here's another:

http://www.mein-img.de/images/proof556.JPG

from identical dies

[Jo Rivett]

Oh Dear, once more, Misinterpretation of facts.
All the Turnerbund badges you have showed on the first two pages have Nothing to do with the Hakenkreuz/Swastika, AT ALL.
If you research this area you will soon find out what the symbol is, it is simply, The letter F four times, Frisch, Fromm, Fröhlich, Frei.

You have changed History to suit your need to believe you have early antisemitic badges? and trying to link the Turnerbund with the Swastika and Anti-jewish propaganda? Good God on his throne, i hope that a Moderator either Deletes this thread, or at least changes the Title.

The Swastika can only be Linked as an Antisemitic Symbol from 1920 onwards, not even from 1918 when the Thule first used it, as they were a Closed and private society and did not issue Propaganda leaflets or posters etc.... The world has Adolf Hitler to thank for Abusing the Swastika, which was a peaceful symbol used all around the world up until he used it for his NSDAP.

Of course the Turnerbund used a Hakenkreuz after the NS took over in 1933 as did most others as it was, from then on, the National symbol. But you are getting very confused here, the TB symbols before 1933 have absolutely nothing to do with nazism, Propaganda, antisemitism or whatever else you would like to associated them with.

It is also Sad to see that nobody here has pointed that out to.
The last NSDAP membership badge you show here is a modern Reproduction.

[Jo Rivett]

POST 22.

Hello, firstly, it is not a Membership badge, it has no Slogan, and was therefore allowed to be worn by anyone without Proof of NSDAP membership.
Secondly, there is No Pre-Ges.Gesch time. After a patent was applied for, paid and issued, you could them place Gesetzlich Geschützt on your items.
Depending on who was making the item, even up until the 1930`s, sometimes there will be no Ges. gesch, so the Lack of the Patented mark on any non-officail badge is NO indication of the time period it was made, and you can NOT, therefor say it is an Early badge, and most certainly not say something like it is a Pre-ges.gesch badge?
Maybe you could tell me what you mean by Pre-ges.gesch ? Pre 1930? pre 1925? pre 1921 ?

This stickpin has the typical Austrian sunRay-design, and therefor dates from the mid 20`s at the earliest. A good guess would be around 1933-35 if you ask me, but no one did, so that's just my 5 cents.

As long, and "informative" as your posts are, or are trying to be, they are factually wrong, (Like your Turnerbund info) i am not sure what information source you are using to do your research, i imagine though a brief Google coupled with Assumption??

keep in mind, that whatever you post on a Forum, may well be used by others as a source for future research, so if you are posting Gobbeldy-gook and no body takes the time to Correct you, this could well mean that future collectors Heads are also filled up with Gobbeldy-Gook Which would in turn mean that in the future, people who actually take an interest in History, would refer to WAF as the Gobbeldy-Gook forum ! Heavens forbid.

[Carsten135]

well josef you are not correct, i do not know what old books you r reading but they might be outdated, well ill get back on the issue after correcting your first post :
hmm lets erase what we dont like .....or burn the bastard bec of dislike? well that ideoligy has been tryed before..... whitout succes...... well burn your own books first
Hopefully we can go from a personal to a more professional level in future ( wich i recomend ) instead of harrazzing other members which imo is not soutible for a gent. and i imo not particular productive either.
I have no agenda of changing history for my own bennefit? for that i do love history too much and do have a opinion on telling history in a objective way, whit all respect. Hopefully this subject can inspirre others to go studdy further in this for me very intresting piece of History, and thats the real agenda

lets correct some of the meny questions you ask arround, well i have more then enough evidence/documentation for my words thoe i have studdyet/collected this subject for quite a while but lets start from and end.

well josef, the 4f ( Frisch, frei, fröhlich, fromm, Das ist der Turner Reichtum! ) is from the jahn timeperiod and actually to the end of war when they later as i remeber in 1947 got their facilitys confiscated by the german goverment. well jahn later changed it to ( Frisch, fromm, fröhlich, frei, Das andere Gott befohlen sei! ) well he was a good nationalist and religius in any way.
is whit any doubts ( and well documented ) the sign of german badges but its NOT the sign of the swastica as you wrote, far from and only include this sign : ( see pic )

This sign is aprox from the mid 1800 and atually still in use today, its not linked to the 4f anymore, it got seperated after the war and the present TB was raised. So josef what you refer too is the jahn period and you can also see the sign along one or two of my swastica badges, if you look closely. to sum it up its only the german TB part and NOT the austrian Tb that used this as a headsign, and the austrian TB is the main intrest here along ther headsign of the swastica. If you go deeper youll find that they had meny threads and intrest in eachother or in other words a "brotherhood " whit a bit diff. agenda to the german part of TB. well you can lookit up, its not a secret.

well lets take the nextone :
hmm, well the first arienparagraph ( excluding jews and non-german ) was deployed for both austrian and germany in 1885 and its well documented ( later the nazis did modifie it for a later known agenda ) but in my world how can the badges NOT be antisemetic as you can see they starts in 1919 and the well documented arienparagraph was exatly made for use in these particulare verbande incl. other- schools etc. so you are very wrong on this issue the antisemetic timeperiod was well in use at 1919. its not a secret, you can lookit up. For me the retoric and motives on the badges speaks for them selfs, well i would even go so far to say that they used these badges for later inspiration, take th 1922 badge, as i see the badge its very simularity whit the goerings flugzeugführer badge whit the grapping eagle motive, well its only one of my suspissions and also my own personal opinion and plz notis its only a opinion.
well lets go a little further in the badges history and if you are going to search youll proberly find that these badges whit the swastica was actually banned after the juliputch 1934 ( a almost exact mirror to the beerhallputsch ) but the members did carrye these badges anyway despite they where banned and illigal, most of the putischs was turnermembers and the badges was linked to the very early nazism by the austrian goverment and not to forget that the TB members was refered to as " hakkenkreuzler- turner " from the very beginning of 1919, well the TB saw it self and let me quote on german : dem besten Weg zur hauptsächlichsten Kampfesformation der Nationalsozialisten zu werden! later a Reichsdietwart Kurt Münch ( headmaster of the turnebund ) described the turnebund in this way on german : „Wie seit jeher für die völkisch-politische Bewegung bis 1918 stellten sie auch für die Freiheitsbewegung des Dritten Reiches namhafte Vorkämpfer und ihre Vereine dienten in schlimmen Zeiten durchgängig als Tarnung für die Organisationen der Nationalsozialistischen Partei " do i need to prove more well you can lookit up, its not a secret.
again much of these information comes from german arcives both open and closed ones and not particular "geheimlich" . arround the ges. gesch or the rzm for that matter, i do belive that it as not in use in austria until after the anschluss in 1938 would be the most juristic and logic to look on that.

well josef ill wait for more questions and ill take the last questions later and if you get the ressources to lookit up, you might come back and say that imm right on these issues and again much of it is actually pretty documentable.

well imm of now and for the next aprox 14 days imm in germany exploring the Maybach 1+2 führerhaubtquartier well ill take som fresch pics for you gents, ill be in and out shortly by my labtop but are not respond on questions ( my wife will kill me then ) so later on guys and cheers in beers when i sit and enjoy my next journey whit my wife and a beer jo josef you are welcome to join me there and well you can allways sit on the backseat and harraz or terrorise me while driving arround its ALLOWED well hek the first beer is on me,

[Curt Steinbach]

I'll be honest and say that I don't like the tone of most of Josef's posts but his research and reasoning is very good. We all have our explanations and thoughts but some make more sense than others. At the same time I have looked at Carsten's post history and I can't say that I am impressed. I think his logic is flawed and suspect (as Josef points out). Carsten does have some nice pictures to post but often I think that "me thinks thou doth protest too much" - check out the post history to see what I mean.

I do not pretend to be an expert and I am a member because I want to learn but after a while one learns to weed out the BS as compared to those that have some knowledge. I shy away from castigating but sometimes it is called for. I give my input on things that I know about and otherwise I keep quiet and see what develops.

It is one thing to give an opinion (which we all appreciate) and another to provide "facts" unless they are backed up with proof.

Gee, something tells me I might be raked over the coals for this!

Curt

[Carsten135]

well curt i might not have as meny post like josef, thats is not equal whit right or wrong and i do like the facts, you too can look it up, well imm not here to argue over facts but to give you guys a chance to see whats whitin my studdies and yes some intresting angels sometime surface, well lets not forget that new information is still "released " over time due to archive timelimits. well i dont like the idea of my studdies being set up against how meny post mr josef have and whit all respect i do see that he knows alot , but on this part and imo he still have some studdies to do on this particular subject, and hopefully he will do that.
I see that the pic of the 4f didnt show up so here it is and still it have nothing to do whit the swasticas or the austrian hakkenkreuz and only serve as symbol for the german side and not the main symbol for the austrian side. well as josef refers on the 4fs the austrians might be the bended 4f, or the sonnenwende inspirring the austrians but its is still far away from the straight orig. german symbol and is still refered as the hakkenkreuz/swastica and of my knowledege the only banned symbol from the early austrian TB symbols.
240PX-~1.JPG

f584d32dec6b80a829c1c20ae4db9f27.jpg


cheers

[Jo Rivett]

I'll be honest and say that I don't like the tone of most of Josef's posts but ....

Gee, something tells me I might be raked over the coals for this!

Curt

Hi Curt, you are not alone, most don't as it usually means that they have just been exposed as "copy and paste" researchers, ie: never actually bothered to do any of their own research & only relied on what they were told on Forums.
Or, after being told by 100 Top Specialists on Forums that their item(s) are Buff, Real, and Outstanding, i come along and tell them that it cant be.
I don't need to discuss this silly RZM/Ges.Gesch badge, anyone who has actually done some research will know where it comes from, what country and what time period. It`s not genuine and that's all there is to it.

As far as the Turnerbund goes, facts should come before assumption and theories. There is no Anti-Semitic reason for the four F`s on early Turnerbund items But you know what, Hell why not.. after all, our Hobby is drying up and Originals are getting harder to find, so why not lets change History, we can add these as really really very extremely rare Pre 1920 DAP items, their value will rise i tell. I will even help and write articles on how the DAP was actually formed by Karl Harrer , Drexler and the Jolly Green Giant in 1899....
And as far as carstens Replies go, sorry i cant abuse my eyes with that much incorrect spelling and gibberish.

It`s your collection carsten, you may believe whatever you like of course.

[Carsten135]

well josef how you treat people is entirely up to you but some elements works both ways, well some are reacheable some are not!!

how you guys see the badges and the history arround this subject is entirely up to you, imm not here to studdy for you guys but to give history a chance to be explored on this particular subject which i find very intresting. Hopefully some of you gents take my advice and do so, instead of spending time on defending teritory discussing HOW then use WHAT imo is more respectfull to history and hopfully you too can see the combinations of these elements. Well on this subject i can surely say that time is both my enemy and friend.

sorry bout the misspelling josef and the rest of you guys, i am a bit wordblind and before i end up in T4 i can only hope that iq works better then eyes.

cheers

[Jo Rivett]

well josef how you treat people is entirely up to you but some elements works both ways, well some are reacheable some are not!!

how you guys see the badges and the history arround this subject is entirely up to you, imm not here to studdy for you guys but to give history a chance to be explored on this particular subject which i find very intresting. Hopefully some of you gents take my advice and do so, instead of spending time on defending teritory discussing HOW then use WHAT imo is more respectfull to history and hopfully you too can see the combinations of these elements. Well on this subject i can surely say that time is both my enemy and friend.

sorry bout the misspelling josef and the rest of you guys, i am a bit wordblind and before i end up in T4 i can only hope that iq works better then eyes.

cheers

Hi Carsten, i can identify with you when you say :.. [imm not here to studdy for you guys ] i feel the same when i read many posts, that's why i usually like to keep my answers short and to the point, and not copy realms of info from Wiki or other net sources.
And i agree with you again on the research bit, and too would encourage more, in depth research, as since the Internet took off, and the Mili-Forums grew, the collector has become very lazy, and would like, or actually expects, Info-per-mouse-click. All fair and well as long as what he is getting is correct and well researched, but sadly though its the contrary.

Its for this reason alone that i corrected your Anti-Semitic and Nazi-connections to the early Turnerbund badges, as it`s just not true or Historically correct.

Your spelling is OK, most ppl do make the odd mistake, but accept my apologies for not wanting to hurt my eyes by reading 1000 words of it on one post.

[speedytop]

Hi,

I have my problems with some comments here, with both sides, Carsten and Josef.
It is difficult for me, to express it in English, but I will try it.

The main organization of this time in Germany was the "Deutsche Turnerschaft" (DT) from 1860/1868.
This organization was "völkisch", "vaterländisch": very national and patriotic.

As a note we must differentiate here between "Turnen" and "Sport", it is in this time not convertible.
Turnen = German, "deutsches Turnen"
Sport = international

And important is, it was a partyless organization (Alle politischen Parteibestrebungen sind ausgeschlossen).

In individual "Turnvereinen" jews could be a member. Others don't like it.

Several "deutsch-österreichische Turnvereine" did not accept jews, which led to the splitting. Separated are the "Deutscher Turnerbund", later the "Turnkreis Deutsch-Österreich", ending in the "Deutscher Turnerbund (1919)".

A definitely antisemitic organization!

A few "auch Judenstämmlingen offenen Vereine" (not anti-jewish associations) remained with the DT as "Turnkreis 15b" (1904-1919).

Therefore it is my conviction, that these are badge/tinnies of an antisemitic organization, but I don't see antisemitic symbols in the 4 rounded "FFFF".

And I don't see a swastika, also no precursor for a Nazi symbol.

Uwe

[Carsten135]

hi uwe

Thx for backing me up on the antisemetic part and might start the end of " battle of the badges " and yes it did inflict ther way og living both in germany and especially on the austrian side, i do belive that in some areas of germany the first arienparagraf 1885 had its problems thoe some of the jewis community was very powerfull ( money, trade, banking, loans etc. ) well we cant see this form of power today bec of the systematic killings, decissions made on the wannsee conferrenc. Well Hitler did change this arienparagraph in 1935 and made the jewish people to 2 degree citicens and the rest of the story is well known. well atleast we can honnor these meny millions of people giving ther lives inwain by telling the very root that led them - fist selection and then death in a most horroble way, and all the selected people that was worked to death by building the 3 reich, well just a personal opinion.
well lets get back on the track and some of my observation arround the swastica still raise questions like why they called them "hakkenkreuzler - turner " ( swatica-turner ) at pressent time, why didnt they keep the 4f symbol like there german brotherhood in straight form and not as a swastica and furtheron beeing banned after the juliputsch exatly bec. of the swastica symbol , well as i see the history arround these members they where from start under influence of the very early form of nazism or atleast under highly influence of antisemetic agendas and futheron also sponsored by the nazis, as wrote before they was not in a leading role but manipulated in any way and as you say uwe they could not have politics organisations involved, well the early nazis did care sh... bout that , the where there anyway trying to get influence, and they actully had pertty much succes bec on the german front hitler had his co-partners in veterans and freikorps ( mainly Rossbach, i do have a freikorps needle somewhere in my collection, and ill set it on at the end of this tread ) but at the same time on the austrian front hitler mainly used TB to get members whit great succes well meny was both german and austrians citicens and fellow veterans from 1 ww . well not to forget that Hitlers in his early days was from 1907 - 13 was living in wienna trying to get a life in his native contrey and had a pretty hard time but creating friends and buildup anger agaist both jews and scocialdemocrats, i do recomend you uwe ( and others ) to read the book " Hitlers Weg begann in wien by j. sydney Jones " the book is on german and from Munic 351 pages but it will give you a pretty solid background on his early antisemetic behavior.
Well to sum it up where one of my main question has foundation is " Who inspirred Whom " was it the Thule geschellschaft from 18 formed on the luxury "Hotel Vierjahreszeiten" ( still exist ) in Munic not far from austria, or the austrian part of TB from 19 close by, whit the highly antisemetic behavior ( and badges ) refered as hakkenkreuz turner- still whit hitler growing power standing in the middle and manipulated both sides like puppets.
I do see some antisemetic retoric in the badges along whit some simularitys on later badges like the flugzeugführer ( the eagel ) i also see the straight german 4f TB symbol bended like a swastica on the austrians 4f TB badges.
Well it will be worth investigate this very narrow timeframe of 18 - 19 thoe we are talking month and if you guys wanna help me out you are most welcome to participate whit your wisdom , whit all respect.
well time is my enemy imm soon off for some days going to explore the Maybach fhq. but ill follow up when i get back.


well josef i know exatly what you mean and apologies accepted, i too have bad eyes after such mail it took me round 3.5 h to create this mail going trough ... then.... and my eyes getting tired too thats why sometimes i find it resonable to use other quotes or a small textsample, its save me alot of , time i can use reserching instead so its def. not of lazyness theres too much yet to explore for that, but only if imm 100% sure of both my own agreement v crossreferences too. So ill never be a great writher thats for sure but my faultys trough almost 50 years have learned me to be a paitient man- And your most welcome to bite my ass aslong we can do this in a produktive and not a destructive way, still you are always welcome to shake hands and then a beer ( on me first ), if it comes to that.

heres the midnightsnack i told you guys about : well for me its looks like SA Rossbach Hubertusabz whit crown stamped 800 as far as i can see, but imm open for other suggestions, fell free to speak and here comes 4 pic for you guys.



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[Carsten135]

[ATTACH]1902738[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]1902739[/ATTACH]

[James Noble]

This German Hunters Bund stickpin is a depiction of the Saint Hubertus Stag with Christian Cross and Imperial Prussian Crown. When the Nazis took control the cross was replaced with the swastika.