2 HJ Foreigners Badges: real or fake?

[valsente]

Hello guys,
I need your opinion about these two rare badges. Real ones or fakes? ( Sorry for the pic of the brown one which seems to be blue. Really the frame is brown. )
Thanks a lot in advance.
Val

[Duzig]

Hello,
I personally know nothing about these badges except what I have read and heard from others. I believe only the one's that are brown in color with no maker mark are considered original. I hope others with actual hands on knowledge will give their opinions.
Duzig(Bill)

[Don Scowen]

The top one with the brown border is an original. It has all of the points that I would expect to see when looking examining one.

Cheers
Don

[Stan]

HJ Badges

First one is original and the second one is a fake/fantasy badge.

Stan

[valsente]

First one is original and the second one is a fake/fantasy badge.

Stan

The second one could be a fake but not a fantasy badge.
Angolia "The HJ" Vol. 2 page 185: "Examples mounted on a cardboard "Betriebmuster" of indeterminate origin do exist. They are identical in every respect except the outside borders are in green or red ( in addition to the standard brown border ) for which there is no explanation".
Val

[Don Scowen]

The second one could be a fake but not a fantasy badge.
Angolia "The HJ" Vol. 2 page 185: "Examples mounted on a cardboard "Betriebmuster" of indeterminate origin do exist. They are identical in every respect except the outside borders are in green or red ( in addition to the standard brown border ) for which there is no explanation".
Val

Angolia was mistaken, the pieces he described were fantasy pieces believed to have been made by Flock in the 1970's....... Just because sometjing is in one of Angolia's books doesn't mean it's real.

Cheers
Don

[valsente]

Angolia was wrong, the pieces he described were fantasy pieces believed to have been made by Flock in the 1970's....... Just because sometjing is in one of Angolia's books doesn't mean it's real.

Cheers
Don

Hello Don,
thanks for your valuable information I did not know. Where can I find something written about the Flock's fakes?
Val

[Clayton]

I don't want to add to this controversy but I can tell you I saw this with my own eyes. I was at the Ohio Gun Collectors Association gun show which used to be held in downtown Columbus, Ohio at the Veterans Memorial Hall. This was sometime in the late 1960's or very early 1970's. A gentleman who identified himself as a WWII veteran came into that show carrying a box of about 25 of these cardboard cards. On each card was mounted three of these Hitler Youth badges with enamel highlights, one green, one red, and one brown.

At the time no one at the show had ever seen Hitler Youth badges like this and the veteran wasn't anxious to sell them. He just wanted to know what they were and what the dealers set up at the show would be willing to offer him. All the sellers and collectors of German militaria at the show were talking about this and I never knew what happened to those badges or saw that WWII veteran again.

But I can assure everyone I personally saw this and it is the truth. I hope this helps.

Clay

[Don Scowen]

Yes, it was about that time that they appeared in large numbers with their cards here in Europe as well. However the only dealers who initially had them were the ones that were known for selling dodgy items. It wasn't long before they could be found on the stalls of most dealers in single pieces (without the card backing).

Cheers
Don

[Clayton]

Hello Again:

The man I saw who had this box of Hitler Youth badges mounted on cards was, in my opinion, a real WWII veteran. He was the right age of a WWII veteran at that time. I remember he was wearing blue jean bib overalls like farmers often wore at that time. He wasn't a dealer and I really don't believe he had any connection with Johannes Floch whatsoever. I only saw him this one time and I attended every Ohio Gun Collectors show in that early era.

I remember he was standing in front of a dealer's table and the dealer was looking through his box. And a little crowd was beginning to form around this guy. Other people saw the badges, as did I, and wanted to see what was going on. I remember this man was a little intimidated with all this attention. In those days, collectors and dealers would often be aggressive if they spotted a veteran carrying military things into a gun show. This transaction had, in my opinion, all the characteristics of a WWII veteran showing his war souvenirs to a group of collectors.

I am no expert in Third Reich badges, but from all that I saw that day, I was and am convinced those badges mounted on those cards in that box that guy was carrying were real WWII war souvenirs.

I hope this helps,

Clay

[Mainemilitaria]

Don is absolutely correct.....these are well recognized as BAD. I also remember when these first surfaced "on the card"....probably was the same reluctant "Vet" who was "just showing" his box of "liberated" badges here in New England at the shows....he did finally agree to sell a couple sets just to thank the "nice dealers" who helped him....of course....for a price! always for a price! Luckily, they were out of my price range ....(or I would have suckered for them too!)

There are a great many enamel badges that came out in the 1960s/70s that are now in many collections....stuff like the Olympic Umpires badges, Olympic Press badges, HJ Foreign Awards, Jagermeister, and Tirolian Shooting badges, to name only a few.
(Some originals exist of some of these....but the majority are clunker IMO.)

Angolia's books are "good".....but like everything, not perfect by any means!
None of us knows everything.....even if you've written a book!
John G.

[Gary Symonds]

The Hermann Aurich marked badge and the one with no mark are virtually identical. Why would the faker go to the extra trouble to create a maker mark? Particularly one that matches other Aurich marked badges.

There is no evidence to support this myth and nobody has the proof other than quoting other collectors who quote other collectors.

Angolia could be wrong, but nobody, but nobody has proven this. The fact that there were these maker cards in abundance, proves nothing.

Everytime I question this myth and ask for evidence, NOT opinion, the responding silence is deafening.

If the Aurich badges are fakes, prove it with something other than opinion. This myth sounds like the 6 strand SS cuff band nonsense that was believed for years, until finally the truth came out. The market should be flooded with these and that is not the case. Where are the others?

I am still waiting. Talk is cheap. Let's see some proof.

[Don Scowen]

You are correct <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Gary</ST1</st1:City>, no period proof has been found that the coloured bordered badges are fake. Nor is there any written proof that Gustav Brehmer did not make the 1939 Kreissieger Reichsberufswettkampf badges, but no experienced collector will touch them because they know that they are fake…

The only possible evidence is that the unmarked versions have been found in belongings of the awardees, whereas the coloured ones have only turned up through supposed vets & dealers (& at the same time in the US & Europe). They are said to be “unissued” or samples etc, if that is the case they would all be mint, but many are aged & the eagles worn down as if they have been worn etc And quality of the couloured badges does not match the quality of the unmarked ones for such an important award.

Sometimes you have to put these things down to experience. Keep your eyes & ears open & make notes on who the faces & dealers are that introduce new, unknown, or differently marked badges/items on to the market. When it turns out to be the same people each time & those people are also the ones that tend to have more bad items than the other stalls then alarm bells should start to ring. You know the sort of dealer I mean, the ones that have a very rare badge that you have been after for years (or may never have seen before), so you buy it, only to find when you pass the stall again half an hour later he has another one exactly the same sitting in what should be the empty space left by the one bought earlier.

It’s comments like yours that help the fakers because they rely on that small speck of doubt in collectors minds to sell their wares, & that leads to an inexperienced collectors to shell out a lot of money on something bad.
<O
Yes talk is cheap, but the badges in question are very expensive.<O
</O
At the end of the day the argument should never be can I prove to you that it’s a fake, it should be can you prove to me that it’s original.<O</O

[Gary Symonds]

You are correct <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Gary</ST1</st1:City>, no period proof has been found that the coloured bordered badges are fake. Nor is there any written proof that Gustav Brehmer did not make the 1939 Kreissieger Reichsberufswettkampf badges, but no experienced collector will touch them because they know that they are fake…

The only possible evidence is that the unmarked versions have been found in belongings of the awardees, whereas the coloured ones have only turned up through supposed vets & dealers (& at the same time in the US & Europe). They are said to be “unissued” or samples etc, if that is the case they would all be mint, but many are aged & the eagles worn down as if they have been worn etc And quality of the couloured badges does not match the quality of the unmarked ones for such an important award.

Sometimes you have to put these things down to experience. Keep your eyes & ears open & make notes on who the faces & dealers are that introduce new, unknown, or differently marked badges/items on to the market. When it turns out to be the same people each time & those people are also the ones that tend to have more bad items than the other stalls then alarm bells should start to ring. You know the sort of dealer I mean, the ones that have a very rare badge that you have been after for years (or may never have seen before), so you buy it, only to find when you pass the stall again half an hour later he has another one exactly the same sitting in what should be the empty space left by the one bought earlier.

It’s comments like yours that help the fakers because they rely on that small speck of doubt in collectors minds to sell their wares, & that leads to an inexperienced collectors to shell out a lot of money on something bad.
<O
Yes talk is cheap, but the badges in question are very expensive.<O
</O
At the end of the day the argument should never be can I prove to you that it’s a fake, it should be can you prove to me that it’s original.<O</O

Don:
Your comments are well taken, but I cannot agree. The Aurich marked badges are of consistent quality to the unmarked one's. You claim that the quality is inferior. Since we have pictures of both, please detail what lack of quality you are claiming.

The fakers rarely use rivets and I would expect that the eagle would be glued on in a fake. The quality of these are too high to be a reproduction.

As I pointed out, if they are reproductions and the dies are still available, the market would be flooded with them. That is not the case. I maintain that we are dealing with a collector myth and nothing more.

[Ron Weinand]

The top badge is, indeed, an original and exactly like the one I got directly from a veteran in the 1980s. The second badge is a reproduction. it is NOT identical to the original. The pin base, the HJ diamond and other characteristics are different.