Grundsteinlegung des Volkswagenwerkes in Mai 1938 badge.....

[USA-Alex]

Maybe we can get the moderator here to post the 2 so far side by side. That would help with comparison. I beleive mine is of zinc. It is feather light in weight. Robert

Good idea, anyone with computer skills in here

Zinc is not considered light.

Weight comparison:

Zinc: 7.15 gr / ccm
Steel : 7.85 gr / ccm
Aluminum : 2.7 gr / ccm

[jabnus]

Well i don,t know any one else?

With all respect, but obviously you don't know indeed! Yet you did first post it is good and even put a price of over 400 dollar on it for which it is now listed on the E-stand? Every collector believing the "WAF" gave a badge it's thumb up might fall for it I don't know you and don't want to personally attack you, but like you so did a few other well known member here post it is good, whereas it isn't! Why now post you don't know as first you did know??? Doesn't this show that everyone just shouts something but no-one knows anything? Why then post a reply...


I understand im only one person here who says the badge that started this topic is bad and the badge Robert posted is good. Most of you don't know me, that's ok, i collect mainly medals and tinnies and post more on other forums, of course this says nothing as well. More opinions are needed to give a more and better consensus about what is right or wrong, but at least im 100% sure of my opinion. Who else in this and the first topic can say that? Please any potential buyers be warned: whoever buys this for 400 throws away his money!


Also: why put this one next to the one posted above?? A blind man can see the differences? --> The pitting, the bad edges, the details, the false maker mark, the funky Ges Gesch, false hardware, etcetc. It is obvious this is a completely different badge??????

@Robert: The originals are indeed featherlight, this is correct

As always, know what you collect and even more so: know what you post, i don't understand it if people post that something is good that they don't have a clue about what they talk about? IMO opinion there are recently here much too many fake items called good and vice versa by people who have no idea what they talk about...

best regards,
Gaston

[jabnus]

Don't get me wrong, if my badge is proven as fake, I can handle it but I do not die without a fight

Alex

Dear Alex,

You try to defend a badge because you want it to be original, i suppose thats normal but in this hobby it's unfortunately most of the time the other way around.
I really don't want to brag, but if you collect badges and medals for a while you know where to look for in original ones. You also start researching specific items. I said a few times aready above here what is bad with your particular badge, please read back:

--> The pitting, the bad edges, the details, the false maker mark, the funky Ges Gesch, false hardware,

These are all characteristics any collector can tell you, i also can tell you that over time i learned an original badge looks like the one Robert posted, that is actually all i can say at this point (at a laptop still not at home). Lets see who else joins here...


best regards,
Gaston

[USA-Alex]

With all respect, but obviously you don't know indeed! Yet you did first post it is good and even put a price of over 400 dollar on it for which it is now listed on the E-stand? Every collector believing the "WAF" gave a badge it's thumb up might fall for it

He was not the only one giving to the badge, look at the other thread....Please read my etand thread again, shortly after you posted your concerns regarding the badge, I've withdrawn it from the sale. It is not my intention to sell fakes as good ones, thats why I posted the photos.
After I got numerous "thumb up's" I listed the badges at the estand.

I understand im only one person here who says the badge that started this topic is bad and the badge Robert posted is good.

Up to this point it looks that way.

More opinions are needed to give a more and better consensus about what is right or wrong

Thats correct as well, so far the big majority does not have a problem with the badge.

Also: why put this one next to the one posted above?? A blind man can see the differences? --> The pitting, the bad edges, the details, the false maker mark, the funky Ges Gesch, false hardware, etcetc. It is obvious this is a completely different badge??????

That is correct as well, it is a different badge, but does that automatically mean it's a bad one?
Question: Is a Iron Cross which does not look like a Juncker a fake just because it does not look like the typical Junker?
Every badge made from different manufacturers had it's own distinctive features, incl. hardware, details etc....

I would like to see some solid prove that this is a bad one, the argumentation "it looks different than the badge I know" does not cut it for me.

Alex

[USA-Alex]

Dear Alex,

You try to defend a badge because you want it to be original, i suppose thats normal but in this hobby it's unfortunately most of the time the other way around.
I really don't want to brag, but if you collect badges and medals for a while you know where to look for in original ones. You also start researching specific items. I said a few times aready above here what is bad with your particular badge, please read back:



These are all characteristics any collector can tell you, i also can tell you that over time i learned an original badge looks like the one Robert posted, that is actually all i can say at this point (at a laptop still not at home). Lets see who else joins here...


best regards,
Gaston

Thanks again for your input. As said in my previous post, the "bad/ different features" you've mentioned (hardware, details, edges, maker mark) will be different with every manufacturer or possibly with every batch, it does not automatically mean that the badge must be bad because it differs from the once you know.

I agree with you in one point:

Lets see who else joins here...

Alex

[Peppe864]

I understand im only one person here who says the badge that started this topic is bad and the badge Robert posted is good.

I agree with you here jabnus the first badge is IMO also a fake (I might have been subtle in my previous post but I aired my concern, although a bit cautiously, see the remark on the bad Hermann Aurich mark.)

So no, you are not alone with that opinion. The second badge posted is for me a nice period made original, it was exactly the type I was looking for in my picture reference library.

Regarding the price I found a reference (only a reference remember that)
In Tieste´s book "Tagungs- und Verstaltungsabzeichen 1930-1945" Band 2 L-Z, page 993 the badge is listed and pictured, the price according to him is 130 euro, this is the edition which was printed 2006. The pictures in the book aren´t that big since there are alots of them, but the badge in Tiestes book also looks to be made of zinc, under the material description it says "metal".

[jabnus]

Hi Peppe864,


Thanks a lot for joining in, be warned the old Tieste books contained wrogn volkswagen pins as wel! these have been identified here on the forum, not sure if he replaced them in later editions.

There are a few very knowledgeable tinniecollectors on the forum, member "Wood" and "Winterhilfwerk" for example. They might be able to tell more? Maybe you an pm them.


In general, if you collect more metal thingies you start to learn and see whats good and/or bad. Besides the wrong pin and the way it is connected in regards to an original badge, this:

The pitting, the bad edges, the details, the false maker mark, the funky Ges Gesch

Should raise doubts alone for ANY items...

This is not believing anymore in good or bad, this is having knowledge of how original items in general look like too.

[jabnus]

http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/viewtop...p=23939#p23939


This may be of interest to anyone interested in more background....

[burgerhaus]

Jabnus Thanks for the link sir. Some God awful fakes I saw!! Thanks agin for your effort. Robert

[USA-Alex]

http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/viewtop...p=23939#p23939


This may be of interest to anyone interested in more background....

Hello Jabnus,

that was a great / informative link, now I'm convinced that my badge is a fake.
I did not know that only 2000 of these badges were made, so the theory of multible makers and the resulting differences in hardware etc. are not valid anymore.

Sorry for being such a bulldog in my previous threads

The badge will be sold now at the Bazaar



Thanks again for this very informative discussion and all the best...



Alex

[Killerbee]

I'm in agreement with most of what is said here and with the article linked (except for the number of badges produced... he is totally guessing IMO... as several thousand apparently attended so why only produce 2,000... I've heard 5,000 were produced... so, take that with a grain of salt). AND, what is the provenance that this badge he is referencing is original?... how do we blindly trust this guy? Although, I'm one to believe him.

In addition, I'm not totally convinced that the button hole KdF pins are reproductions as referenced in that thread. The numbered ones are considered factory worker badges and many that have examined these consider them originals (as I have one that when you examine it in hand, it is very convincing, well made and feather light... actually puzzling... never had a tinnie or pin feel so light weight... it took me back when I first received it... and I've seen them faked.) But what is interesting to me is the button hole KdF cornerstone badge. That one is interesting and somewhat confusing. I'll have to get my hands on one of those to examine for myself.

I think we also have to consider that this was a "commercial" automobile company. Their goal is to sell cars. And to sell cars you advertise like crazy. So I believe it would be naive to think that they stopped making these cornerstone pins. If I were VW, I would be giving them to everyone... employees, staff engineers, sales men, people who ordered the cars, etc. So, it is probable that the ones at the cornerstone ceremony were the type mentioned here as original (Bakelite) but some later ones like the button hole were produced for more internal/external commercial uses. We have to consider this very obvious fact.

For me, the verdict is still out on the button hole KdF cornerstone badges or worker badges. They need more study IMO. To say they are bad is just guess work. The other 99% of these pins are obvious reproductions.

Regards,

Jim

PS. Anyone know someone at Volkwagen that would have access to historical documents?

[jabnus]

Hi Jim,

You are definately right that more research is always needed, this is only one article of course. Also the writer of the topic on Stirnpanzer researched these for a very long time and came after talking to many peopel already to the conclusion that the bakelite badges were the only good ones, he used the posted article only later as a source for his opinion. Apart from eachother we came to the same conclusion of how an original badge looks, and it is not only blind trust for me, still that is only an opinion as well. Everyone please make up your own mind.


Regarding the buttonhole Hermann Aurich badges: they are not like the quality you would expect from an original maker, i still see pitting, bad details and differences in both the (two!) designs and metal, etc, this would never be accepted as good quality by an original maker.

One more thing on the more speculative side: you mention a reason for a higher number of badges because you think in a "2011" way of commercial business and would thus nowadays make and spread much more badges. In the 1930's in Germany this was different, badges were much more "DAYbadges" and issued as such.

[tystgaard]

.

Another type of volkswagen pin. Believe that there are originals of this pin out there???... But been informed that my pin is a fake. Did buy it from a bandit seller, soo that is probably correct.

Nicolai

[Killerbee]

Regarding the buttonhole Hermann Aurich badges: they are not like the quality you would expect from an original maker, i still see pitting, bad details and differences in both the (two!) designs and metal, etc, this would never be accepted as good quality by an original maker.

Hi Jabnus: I know what you are saying, but regarding the buttonhole badges, I don't see what you are seeing... I see wear, oil, dirt and patina that are typical of this type of soft metal material which was probably worn almost everyday; and is 73 years old. Mine is in much better condition and there is no pitting. In hand, I think you would be more convinced. And in comparison, look how "poor" the original Bakelite badges are to the button hole ones... quite atypical for the quality that one would expect from such a significant event for Hitler. Hitler (VW) was working on and planning this event/project for over three years, and in those years this is the badge they produce for such an event? Kind of makes one wonder doesn't it.... makes me wonder. I believe if we came across this "original" badge for the first time, we would have said that it was not of the quality one would expect from any maker, marked or otherwise... especially, when considering that they were produced for such a "special" political event as the unveiling of the "Peoples Car". I'm puzzled to say the least.

This is obviously speculating on my part but the Bakelite had to be more for the typical crowd. Better quality ones had to be provided to the most important individuals. But who knows... only the folks at Volkswagen would know... and probably would not be interested in researching it and would rather forget that time period of their history.

I know one thing, this is an interesting subject and for me, this is what makes collecting fun.

Thanks for your valued expertise and I personally look forward to more. It is well appreciated here. I'm always learning something new everyday.

Jim

[jabnus]

Hi Jim,


Can you please post a front and backpicture of your badge?

best regards,
Gaston