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**Peter J.** · 03-19-2004, 10:52 AM

Hi James.

First of all, thanks for keeping this thread alive. I wish
my first language was english.

Your photo provides more info and if I read it correctly,
the conclusion would be as follow.

The "Leistungabz." came in four differarnt shapes:

1. Bronze mit Jahreszahl (broken oakleaf-wreath)
2. Bronze ohne Jahreszahl (broken oakleaf-wreath)
3. Silber mit Jahreszahl (round oakleaf-wreath)
4. Silber ohne Jahreszahl (round oakleaf-wreath)

The "Meisterschaftabz." came in two different shapes:

1. Gold mit Jahreszahl (round oakleaf-wreath)
2. Gold ohne Jahreszahl (round oakleaf-wreath)

Let´s for the sake of argument accept the theory that
DRL issued the these badges 1937 and 1938 and that
NSRL after its creation in 1938 issued them from 1939-44.
This would make sense if you check the two ref.books I
mentioned in my earlier thread.

As for the revers, the smaller "Mitgleiderabz." and "Fuhrer-
abz." had DRL or NSRL stamped. Quote from Angolia´s book
"The reverse of the stickpins were plain". This might be
correct, personally I think maybe the NSRL-badges were
marked.

To complicate matters even more, the illustrations are from
Weitze´s and Huskens´s salescatalogue. I´ve underlined
the inconcistancies. It´s a minefield, ain´t it

.

Regards
Peter

Attached Files

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**James Noble** · 03-19-2004, 05:06 PM

Peter, IM having trouble seeing the inconsistencies you are pointing out in the illustration you provided please explain further. As to Angolia's statement about the backs of the stickpins being unmarked I don't now if he referring to markers logo or s/n.

**Peter J.** · 03-19-2004, 05:54 PM

Hi James.

I was trying to make a destinction between "Leistungs..."
and "Meistersch..." based in the info in your first illustration.
If we accept this as correct, we´ll see inconsistencies in your
second illustration. Object 8750 i/k and 8751 j/l are referred
to as both "Leistungs.." and "Meistersch...".

Furthermore, Klaus Patzwall refers to "Meistersch..." with
yeardate only. Nothing about it beeing the gold-class, but
that´s obvious, since "Leistungs... with and without yeardate
are referred to in both silver and bronze.

I´ll take break here and see if you find my argumentation
comprehensible

.

Regards
Peter

**James Noble** · 03-19-2004, 07:46 PM

Peter, All three badges illustrated both in bronze and silver with and without dates are considered Achievement Badges (Leistungsabzeichen) the Championship badge (Meisterscraftsabzeichen) Is the of the same design as the #2c Achievement badge with year date but in Gold.

**Peter J.** · 03-19-2004, 08:12 PM

Hi James.

I suppose you mean same as 1c referring to your first
illustration. That´s exactly my point, the "Meistersch..."
was in gold only. Now check the illustration from Huskens´
sales-catalogue and please tell me I haven´t turned crazy,
but shurely a "Meistersch..." 1941 in silver must be con-
sidered inconsistent.

Regards
Peter

**James Noble** · 03-20-2004, 04:59 AM

Peter, I stand corrected it is 1c illus 2. While I believe it is Hüsken who is in error calling a 1941 silver a "Meisterschaftsabzeichen" as it should be a "Leistungsabzeichen" instead.

**Peter J.** · 03-20-2004, 05:58 AM

Hi James.

Finally we´ve got the destinction between "Mei.." and "Lei.."
established

. I guess a lot more could be discussed on the
subject, but I´ll now rest my case. I also realized this topic
would be a challenge. In wiew of the many wiewers and the
relatively low amount of answers, I guess I was right. I´d like
to express my gratitude to the individuals participating in this
thread.

Regards
Peter

**James Noble** · 03-20-2004, 03:23 PM

Peter, Just clarify your original question were you asking if there were two sports org's running simultaneous track infield events or in sports overall.

**Peter J.** · 03-20-2004, 04:07 PM

Hi James.

I´m a bit short of time right now, but I´ll get back
to you soon.

Regarfd
Peter

**Peter J.** · 03-21-2004, 07:08 AM

Hi James.

Let me try to clearify my dilemma.

As for sports in general, I know that the Reichsportabz.
was created by DRL for physical fitness 1933. I also know
that "Meisterch..." and "Leichst..." was created for achieve-
ment in the sports fields, so the distinction between the two
criterias is clear to me.

In 1938 something happened. Angolia says that NSRL
became DRL. Jim suggests that all various sports org.
become NSRL.

Now let´s follow Angolia´s path. If NSRL created the badges
from 1935-37-38 and then was renamed DRL 1938, how come
the illustration on p.235 from 1939 refers to NSRL. Logically
NSRL shouldn´t be in excistence at that time.

On the other hand, when I look at Jim´s theory, it makes
more sence. Why? Mainly because of various other publications
referring to 1937-38-badges as DRL-issued. Also the fact that
1939-44-badges are referred to as NSRL-issues. Btw, a 1942
NSRL "Leistungs." is up for sale at Zeige´s, although that´s no
evidence to support this theory.

Can anyone present a NSRL-document from the period
1935-38?

Finally let me make a point. I´m not on this forum to prove
anything, but to educate myself (and hopefully some others).
Any attempt do correct me and point me in the right direction
will be met with outmost appreciation.

Regards
Peter

**James Noble** · 03-23-2004, 05:33 AM

Peter, Here is my last attempt to clarify the difference between the DRL and the NSRL. The DRA was instituted in 1913 until 1933 then it was replaced by the DRL w/o swastika until 1937 when it was modified to incorporate the swastika. Each of the three could be in bronze, silver or gilt. To earn the bronze, men and women between the ages of 18 and 32 had to pass five parts of a physical test within the space of twelve months. For the silver they had to pass the test for a further eight years or if they were between 32 and 40 if they passed the tests once in twelve months. The gilt badge was given to holders of the silver badge if they were able to pass the tests for a further seven years. So you see these badges were for passing a Physical test not for a sporting competition.

Achievement and Championship badges.
The NS-Physical Training League (NSRL) first created the Championship badge in gold in 1935. In 1937 two additional badges were created to recognize achievement on the sports field. In 1938 The NSRL was merged with the DRL which then became the NSRL/DRL. In my opinion they maintained their position in representing the Third Reich in international and Olympic sporting competition. Achievement badges(Leistungs.) came in bronze and silver with and without date. The bronze with date was for success in one particular branch of sport and was worn for one year the bronze without a date was for successes in more then one sport and was worn permanently. The silver with date was for participation in the final round of the all-Germany championships in one branch of sport it was worn permanently. The silver without date was for successes in representing Germany at international competitions it was a permanent badge. Championship badge (Meisterschaft) was a gold version of dated silver badge for the annual champion in each branch of sport it was also a permanent badge. So in essences they are just two branches of one
tree.

**Peter J.** · 03-23-2004, 12:59 PM

Hi James.

Straight from my hart, thanks for your attempts to enlighten
an old log like myself

. Out of courtesy I´ll try to specify
my reservations.

The destinction between DRL-org.´s "Deutsches Reichsportabz."
and the "Leist..."- and "Meister..." is crystal-clear to me.

My first question was in referrence to Angolia´s info on creation-
dates of the two different organisations (not the badges). It´s
clear that DRL-org. was created 1933. When the NSRL-org. was
created, I have no idea, only that "Meister..." was created 1935.
(You might think I split hair, but that´s what it says.) He further
more suggests that NSRL-org. instituted "Meister.."- and "Leist..."
and that NSRL-org. became the DRL-org. in 1938. This was for me
inconsistent since the DRL-org. was already created.

Jim then presented a second scenario. NSRL-org became the main
body for sports in 1938 (not the DRL as stated by Angolia).

Your last post presents even a third possibility. They merged as two
individually equal org. into an umbrella-org. named either DRL or NSRL.
That would explain the creation of NSRL-badges by NSRL-org. prior to
1938.

Personally I think the NSRL-org. became this umbrella in 1938 and
that referrences to 1937-38 "Leis.."- and Mei.." being issued by
the DRL-org. is incorrect.

So if I read you correctly, I guess we pretty much agree (except
for maybe the 1938 creation). It´s been very stimulating to have
this discussion and you have most definately opened my eyes.

Best regards
Peter

**James Noble** · 03-23-2004, 08:46 PM

Hello Peter, This has been a lot of fun it's good to use the reference books like this. I see where you are coming from as to the date the NSRL was created I haven't seen any either I would hazard a guess that it must have been sometime close to the creation of the Meister badge most likely late 1934. And I also think Angola is in error when he stated NSRL became the DRL in 1938 I also believe Jim is giving the NSRL to much power over all sports as I stated before, the merge only brought the two org's together but each one retained control over their own sphere of influence and your right the Leis. and Mei. badges being issued by the DRL is incorrect as that was totally outside their influence.

Best Regards.

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