Frank and Richard, thanks for the reply. Richard, is there any chance of getting a shot of the reverse of the badge which you posted on your link, especially the hinge, catch and MM?
Frank, I appreciate your clarification of the enamel color. I may have been thrown off by the earlier post in which it was said the badge had "mellowed" to the cream color. I would also suppose that a scratch or chip would reveal the color to be uniform throughout and not white underneath? It would be definitive to see a cracked, scratched or chipped badge to verify this.
Regarding the dot pattern, which, if any, of the patterns that I posted does your original and your fake match Frank? I still find it curious that my original Kreissieger and the fake Reichssieger would have an identical dot pattern. It is highly unlikely that the producer of the purported fake badges would try to reproduce something that is only obvious under close examination and magnification, while leaving many visually obvious things so noticably different. In addition, someone who reproduces these badges would probably use the same HJ diamond on all his badges which makes one wonder why the 1938 and 1939 are different.
In close examination the purported fakes and the known originals do have the same hinge and pin. The major difference is the catch (flat wire vs round wire and block). As we know that at least 2 catch types have been used on known originals and as hinges were frequently different even at the same maker, this in itself would not cause me to condemn the badges. It is another difference, though, to be considered.
Regarding the dies. The larger a metal disk that is being die stamped and the more devices and detail (lettering, dates, MM), the more prone to wear, damage, cracking, etc the die will be, especially when the design is detailed and intricate. These are huge disks and are vaulted, which adds another dimension to the production. As probably 80 to 90 thousand of these badges were produced, the likelihood of damage or of die polishing causing some of the issues we are using for comparison (lower dot on the top of wreath appearing closer to inside rim and less definition for example) seems a good possibility. Gerhardt Starcke in his "Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront" (copyright 1940) states that for 1939 40,000 Kreissieger, 6501 Gausieger and 508 Reichssieger badges were awarded. These numbers are for awards given, production numbers for badges actually produced are not available. He does not give figures for 1938 and I don't think any reference does, but he does state that there were 6323 competitors at the Reichslevel for that year. Even in today's coinage, it is not uncommon to see coins with errors caused by die wear or polishing. Mint marks and devices disappear or become weak, die cracks show up as "veins", etc.
Additionally the three levels of the badge HAD to have at least 3 different obverse dies unless the letters and date were produced seperately and affixed to the disc at some stage of production. (To clarify a bit Frank, these are not inscriptions as you mentioned but are raised devices around which the enamel was added). As it appears the letters and dates were not added to the disc but were struck with the rest of the obverse devices, the dies had to be separate to account for the different lettering and dates. Now if only one reverse die were used, it would mean that during production the Kreissieger obverse die would have to be used until their production numbers were satisfied, then it would have been replaced with the Gaussieger die to produce these and then finally on to the Reichssieger die.
Frank, upon close examination of your scans, I still cannot see that your badge has the very distinctive bump over the right arm of the U. In addition the first E in Brehmer appears to have the arms at a downward angle, your R's seem to have larger loops that are also angled downward and your letters do not seem to be lined up as compared with original Kreissieger badges. Are any of these possibly due to the picture quality?
As I cannot seem to come up with an analogy that is satisfactory to you Frank, as to why Detlev's copy of the week pictures which show the front of an original Reichssieger but use the reverse of a Kreissieger to compare to the purported fake invalidate the comparison, perhaps I should ask another question. If you were offered the Reichssieger badge shown and you were given scans of the front of the badge and the scans of an obviously different badge's reverse, would you part with your money?
Thanks again to all for your continued information and input.
Richard V
Frank, I appreciate your clarification of the enamel color. I may have been thrown off by the earlier post in which it was said the badge had "mellowed" to the cream color. I would also suppose that a scratch or chip would reveal the color to be uniform throughout and not white underneath? It would be definitive to see a cracked, scratched or chipped badge to verify this.
Regarding the dot pattern, which, if any, of the patterns that I posted does your original and your fake match Frank? I still find it curious that my original Kreissieger and the fake Reichssieger would have an identical dot pattern. It is highly unlikely that the producer of the purported fake badges would try to reproduce something that is only obvious under close examination and magnification, while leaving many visually obvious things so noticably different. In addition, someone who reproduces these badges would probably use the same HJ diamond on all his badges which makes one wonder why the 1938 and 1939 are different.
In close examination the purported fakes and the known originals do have the same hinge and pin. The major difference is the catch (flat wire vs round wire and block). As we know that at least 2 catch types have been used on known originals and as hinges were frequently different even at the same maker, this in itself would not cause me to condemn the badges. It is another difference, though, to be considered.
Regarding the dies. The larger a metal disk that is being die stamped and the more devices and detail (lettering, dates, MM), the more prone to wear, damage, cracking, etc the die will be, especially when the design is detailed and intricate. These are huge disks and are vaulted, which adds another dimension to the production. As probably 80 to 90 thousand of these badges were produced, the likelihood of damage or of die polishing causing some of the issues we are using for comparison (lower dot on the top of wreath appearing closer to inside rim and less definition for example) seems a good possibility. Gerhardt Starcke in his "Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront" (copyright 1940) states that for 1939 40,000 Kreissieger, 6501 Gausieger and 508 Reichssieger badges were awarded. These numbers are for awards given, production numbers for badges actually produced are not available. He does not give figures for 1938 and I don't think any reference does, but he does state that there were 6323 competitors at the Reichslevel for that year. Even in today's coinage, it is not uncommon to see coins with errors caused by die wear or polishing. Mint marks and devices disappear or become weak, die cracks show up as "veins", etc.
Additionally the three levels of the badge HAD to have at least 3 different obverse dies unless the letters and date were produced seperately and affixed to the disc at some stage of production. (To clarify a bit Frank, these are not inscriptions as you mentioned but are raised devices around which the enamel was added). As it appears the letters and dates were not added to the disc but were struck with the rest of the obverse devices, the dies had to be separate to account for the different lettering and dates. Now if only one reverse die were used, it would mean that during production the Kreissieger obverse die would have to be used until their production numbers were satisfied, then it would have been replaced with the Gaussieger die to produce these and then finally on to the Reichssieger die.
Frank, upon close examination of your scans, I still cannot see that your badge has the very distinctive bump over the right arm of the U. In addition the first E in Brehmer appears to have the arms at a downward angle, your R's seem to have larger loops that are also angled downward and your letters do not seem to be lined up as compared with original Kreissieger badges. Are any of these possibly due to the picture quality?
As I cannot seem to come up with an analogy that is satisfactory to you Frank, as to why Detlev's copy of the week pictures which show the front of an original Reichssieger but use the reverse of a Kreissieger to compare to the purported fake invalidate the comparison, perhaps I should ask another question. If you were offered the Reichssieger badge shown and you were given scans of the front of the badge and the scans of an obviously different badge's reverse, would you part with your money?
Thanks again to all for your continued information and input.
Richard V
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