Understanding RZM markings - RZM M1/53

[Carson]

Good morning and hope you can help me.

I collect SA Lapel Pins by manufacturer.

I have one that is RZM 153, which is Frederich Orth of Wein. You can see there is no "M1" number and it is stamped INTO the metal, rather than protruding.



http://www.after6.utvinternet.ie/html/m1.html

This weekend I purchased a lapel pin marked RZM M/1 53. It is of a totally different manufacturing process, pin attachment, etc. There is a large space between the M/1 and the 53 and the marking PROTRUDES from the back of the metal.

When I looked up the M1 number, I see no designation for RZM M1 53. Is there one and what is the name of the company? I can find DJ leader's cap eagles with this designation and different web sites.



Does the positioning of the "/" make any difference? Is RZM M1 XXX any different than RZM M/1 XXX?

I appreciate your input.

NOTE: I would take a picture of my new lapel pin, but my camera is not able to take a worthwhile picture of the hard to read markings on my new pin.

[Carson]

Anyone?

This sounds like a question for the most staunch of collectors.....

[Jamz]

Perhaps Stephen Lautens of 'A Collectors Guide To The RZM marks of the
NSDAP' will step in. I have also found no reference to that # in his book, but I have found both stamped and raised variations.
I am fairly sure both your examples are ok but the name of the company may or may not be very elusive. ie someone may know who that is, but I don't.
Perhaps a search of this forum if you haven't already tried...
John

[Carson]

Thank you for the information John.

I try my best to do an advanced search before I ask of information from other members on any things I need help with.

Of course I dream I have an elusive RZM M1/ 53 pin that is rare and obscure, but in reality there is most likely another explaination. Part of the fun of this hobby is exploring items like this.

[sjl]

I thought my ears were burning...

My guess is the "M1" is under the solder in the SA stickpin. By the time Orth received its RZM license (1938), the RZM and the "M" system was well-established.

Generally you find RZM marks raised, except on things like buttons, clasp belts and fittings, where they would wear against fabric. I don't have a problem with this one for the same reason.

As for M1/53, there is no listing I've seen for that number. Do you have a better shot of the actual mark? This appears to be the general civil service cap eagle, which is one of the few exceptions to the rule about RZM marks being only on certain Party insignia.

[Carson]

Thank you for your comments Stephen! I am sure though that this is not the first time your ears have burned!!!

I have taken the brave step of learning how to use my camera. You will see the difference between the RZM M/153 and the one that has me scratching my head RZM M1 53.

Please note that their construction is entirely different in pin attachment and some other construction features, plus one has imprinted numbers and the others protrude.

I do not have an M1 53 cap eagle, but did find them in a couple of places on the internet which does not make sense to me, if the company assigned RZM 53 did not exist. Who made the cap eagles and did they make this lapel pin?

I would appreciate your thoughts on whether my SA lapel pin is M1 53 or RZM 153 and they changed their entire design during the war. Thanks!

[Carson]

[sjl]

Hi Carson,

Well, this is a genuine mystery. The first one you posted is likely an F. Orth of Vienna "M1/153" with the "M1" under the blob of pin solder.

The newest one is curious, because I would think it is "M1/53". I've never seen the "M" without the "Gruppe" number 1. The lack of a "/" is confusing, but I've seen examples without the "/", but not the "1" in "M1".

Still, M1/53 is unknown - possibly unissued, or issued and quickly withdrawn for some reason (merger, bankruptcy, etc.). If that were the case, it would be very early - but that is just speculation, and I'd expect to see some reference to the number somewhere. RZM numbers were hardly ever re-issued (only twice I'm aware of in the 1000 or so "M" series of license numbers).

As an example RZM number M1/129 was never used, but it appears on all variety of fake enamel badges. I'm not suggesting these M1/53 are fakes, but they are curious. I'd love to see more M1/53 photos. The SA stickpin looks genuine enough.

The eagle shown was introduced in 1936 I believe, so the RZM had already been marking things in a standardized way for more than a year. Here's one of the same type from my collection with an odd way of writing the RZM number - no "/" but the "1" dropped down to show it is the Gruppe and not part of the "78" license number.

[Carson]

A mystery but still more information and answers than I could have dreamed of. Thank you very much for the insight Stephen!

I agree that this is an M1/ 53 and will cherish it more due to the unkown behind it. Thanks again for your expertise!