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**dm5000** · 03-14-2002, 09:58 PM

Where are they now?

Since his Blood Order was not worn on a regular basis, I assume it was somewhere along with (presumed) alternate copies of his EK1 and black wound badge.

Does anybody know if these items survived the war and are in a collection somewhere?

This is for BILL STUMP ....

I have been meaning to ask....A number of months ago you mentioned in a thread that you had viewed HG's platinum Grand Cross of the Iron Cross which had gotten into a private collection (I assume from the Kubalas), but that it, along with HG's other awards, were destroyed in a fire in the 1970s....

"The Iron Time" leaves you with the impression that all of HG's surrendered awards are still somewhere in the US.

Could you please tell us what you know about how they got from the Kubalas to a house fire?

Please, please Uncle Bill, the kids chant as they gather around.....

Thanks,
Dave M.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 12:09 AM

GORING SURRENDER MEDALS

My good friend Steve Previtera may be right, but all the evidence points to the medals ending up in a pioneer collectors hand in the late 70's and they were then destroyed in a fire. The article was posted here a long time back, but by popular request I will repost now for you and those who missed it. Also, if Mark Schroeder is around, I hope he will come my posting aid again, and thanks to my friend Otto Spronk, I can provide two photographs of Goring's great orders and medals chest and the details of how he got it.

**dm5000** · 03-15-2002, 12:30 AM

Thank you...

Thanks Bill...What I vaguely remember of it, it is a very interesting story and Im sure anybody who missed it would love to hear it. If Mark Schroeder doesnt find this thread, please feel free to email the me the photos and I will gladly post them...

Thank again,
Dave M.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 12:38 AM

GORING SURREENDER MEDALS

I couldn't find the entire thread, but this deals with the Surrender medals and the debunks the Campion Pilot Observer's Badge with Diamonds as being Gorings surrender badge.

THE GORING SURRENDER MEDALS – KUBALA’S STIPULATION

Text © Copyright William C. Stump 2000

Three weeks had passed since the Ohio Gun show and still I had not received any word from peter Kubala. In the mean time, my friend Ted Rich and send me all the information he had concerning Kubala’s involvement with Goring and the other high ranking prisoners captured and sent to the Interrogation Center set up at Augsburg. I had given up hope of hearing from Peter Kubala when the phone rang late one evening, as I was relaxing after dinner. It was Peter Kubala and he informed me that he was sorry to have not made contact before now, but collectors had "pestered" him daily trying to purchase the Goring medals. He dropped a few names and I knew he was telling the truth. I could sense a sales pitch coming, but what he said next was a complete surprise. He said that he knew that everyone he had met were just crooks looking to cheat him, including me. I almost told him what I thought of him and his attitude, but the mere possibility that I might be able to acquire the Goring medals overcome my hot temper and the hillbilly retaliation I was normally known for displaying on occasions. He proceeded to say that he had been offered a large sum of money for the medals, but what he wanted was more valuable to him than money. It seems that year ago when his father returned from the war, he not only had Goring’s medals, but his solid gold watch as well. The watch had been given to the son with the medals and other war booty his father had brought back. However, according to Peter, when his father divorced his mother and left to make a new life with the French woman he had met during the war, he left with the gold watch as well. The incident, along with the natural traumatic loss of his father, seemed to have burned into the memory of the son for all these years. The medals he said meant nothing to him and if I could get his gold watch back the medals would be mine. He gave me the address of his father, now deceased, in Cocoa Beach Florida. He informed me to contact him if I could accomplish this task.

I immediately contacted my friend Ted Rich and informed him of my conversation with Kubala. We both realized that the search had now taken a near impossible turn. However, my sister was living near Cocoa Beach in Orlando and I made plans to visit her and try to contact Mrs. Kubala. I informed Ted that I would try to make contact with Mrs. Kubala as soon as I could arrange to travel to Florida.

As I looked through the material received from Ted earlier, I called Ten and said I would make one last attempt to acquiring the Goring medals from Peter Kubala. I would tell him if he didn’t agree to part with the medals that the truth that his father had lied would be made known. I would tell him that it wouldn’t look good on his father’s memory if the twisted tale and lies his father had told proved him to be a liar and a thief. Ted said that it just didn’t look good for either West Point or myself ever getting the medals away from Kubala.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 12:43 AM

NEXT PART

I immediately called and informed Peter and informed him of my plan stating that West point would make it know that his father had lied to them about him not having the medals and was a liar. To my surprise, Peter said he didn’t care because everyone already knew his father was a liar and he could care less what West Point or I wrote about him. He flatly said that if he didn’t get his watch that I would not get the medals. That was the last time I ever spoke to Peter Paul Kubala.

PETER SECRETLY SOLD THE GORING MEDALS TO AN OLD FRIEND IN THE EARLY 1970’S – SECRET KEPT FOR OVER 30 YEARS

Peter Paul Kubala retained the Goring Surrender Medals for all practical purposes. I was resolved to the fact that I had failed. Periodically over the following years I would be asked about them. Peter Kubala finally started telling people that he had sold them to me and not to contact him about them again. For me I looked upon my hard fought attempt as just another one that got away. Little did I know that I would be holding the Goring Grand Cross again in less than a year and wouldn’t recognize that it was Kubala’s Goring Grand Cross.

About the same time all the furor about the Kaubla items was foremost on my mind, I had been visiting a pioneer collector in the military field who was my dear friend and "American Mentor", Dr. Klietmann being his German counter part, whose name was Basil Harr. My old friend lived almost a hermit near Bristol, Virginia, in a most unusual home that housed one of the world’s most extensive private collections from both W.W.I and W.W.II. Most people live in a home and have an area devoted to their collection. With Basil, now in his early 80’s, he hand built his home around his collection. He had secret panels, doors, and hiding places that only he knew how to open. The house was a museum that could be converted into a conformable dwelling at the touch of Basil’s finger. He lived alone in the large two-story house and his only companions were his two goats. He called them his "Watch Goats". I learned never to get out of my car without announcing my presence with my car horn. He didn’t have a telephone or T. V. set even and when I wanted to visit I simply drove the two-hour drive from my home to his and he always welcomed me. So one of my earliest trips I forgot to blow my horn and was walking towards the steps leading to his front door when I found myself flying through the air and landing on the ground with a painful thud. Standing over me was one of the "Watch Goats" who had "Pearl Harbored" me. Fortunately, Basil came quickly to my rescue and I learned immediately what he meant by calling the goats his "Watch Goats". When he was present, they were the most docile creatures one could hope to see, always "mooching" a cracker or bit of candy. You could have had the Hershey factory and be alone and all you would receive would be a resounding butt and begin flying without a license right their on the spot.

Basil was a most secretive collector and dealt primarily with European dealers. Only a very few major dealers had ever heard of Basil Harr and fewer knew where he lived. That was the way he liked it and it was basil that wrote me when a friend of his said that I was a major collector and taught high school in Harlan. On my first visit he asked me never to invite anyone without is permission. I only took a couple of my close friends to meet him in all the time I knew him. Pioneer collector Paul Peters, of Cincinnati, Ohio, was one and thought that he had walked into a museum upon seeing just the surface of Basil’s interior. When Basil begin to open the doors of his main display, Paul knew he had.

On one of my bi-weekly visits, I entered his main living room and on the middle of the table was an item that immediately caught my eye. It was an astonishing example of a Grand Cross. Basil had a bad habit of polishing every medal he had and used a soft cloth and silver polish. He has just finished polishing the silver border of the cross as I drove up. It was resting on a small paper box and the wrapping paper was also on the table. He had just received it in the mail. I was so awe struck with the cross as bells began to ring in my head. I had seen a cross just like this one in Louisville in the hand of Peter Kubala. I immediately asked Basil where had he come by this great Grand Cross. He picked the box up and set it aside, grinned and said, "Bill this was Hermann Goring’s wearing cross". I again asked where it came from and again, he grinned and I can almost see the delight in his eyes today after 30 years as he replied: "Now Bill, I can’t tell you all my secrets now can I?" That was Basil and I knew the Cross had found a home because Basil never traded or sold, just bought and bought everything he could get his hands on. I pointed out the most unusually large and solid cravat the cross was hung from. In 1969, I didn’t have the knowledge I have now and really didn’t think it was all that important then as I do now 30 odd years later. I also knew that I could look at it, or even take it home to study and photograph if I simply asked Basil’s permission.

Upon arriving back home that evening, I called Ted Rich and informed him of my latest visit with Basil. Ted had been interested in some of the items that Basil had that I had photographed and sent to him to inspect. Basil had been dealing with a character by the name of Charles Kingston and Ted Rich was working on exposing this charlatan for what he was: a prime crook, forger. E was also one of the best fakers of Third Reich daggers to ply his evil art in those early days of the 60’s and 70’s. As son as I mentioned seeing a "Himmler Honor Sword" in Basil’s collection, Ted immediately told me what it looked like and read the inscription that was engraved on the blade to me. I was astounded and told Ted that a sword as he described was in Basil’s collection. Ted informed me that he thought the sword and some of the other daggers Basil had were in fact forgeries. He asked if I could bring the items up for him and the museum staff to inspect when I next visited West Point. I agreed and made arrangement to take the requested items with me to West Point. Ted wrote Mr. Harr requesting permission to inspect and view the items and I left Knoxville, Tennessee by plane to stay for a few days at West Point. I took the items and arrived in New York City in the midst of the greatest snowstorm to hit the state in over 50 years. By the time I arrived at West point from New York City by bus, I was about to warm up the collecting world and help expose a major faker to the world. Unknown to me, I was carrying the original Goring Surrender Grand Cross and never found it out until last week, thirty-one year later.

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 12:44 AM

THIRD AND FINAL PARY OF THE STORY.

The West Point Library had receive an unpublished manuscript from aU. S. Army Colonel. The manuscript was compiled in 1964 and was work of fiction. Not to embarrass the Colonel who was duped, I will not release his name because at the time I gave my word to Ted and the Library staff that I would keep all names confidential except the name of "Charles Kingston." To the best of my knowledge it now resides in the Rare Books and Document files never to be made public.

The Daggers all turned out to be Kingston fakes the Himmler sword and H. Wick’s Luftwaffe presentation sword included. However all the rest of the items (I have the original photographs that I took of all these items in my files to this day.) Unfortunately no photographs of the Goring Grand Cross are available and are lost to history due to a devastating flood that destroyed 75 % of my written files in 1976. However, Ted was so taken with the Grand Cross that he wrote Basis after I had returned it to him. Basil told him that it was indeed the original cross Goring was wearing when he surrendered and he had the other medals that Goring had once owned at the time of his surrender. Ted took 31 years to tell me about this correspondence. He realized at that time Basil Harr had come to own what I had worked so many months to acquire. He was the new owner of the medals Peter Paul Kubala owned. Maybe both Ted and Basil just didn’t want to hurt my feelings after all the time and money I invested in my quest had ended in failure. This will for now remains part of the mystery, but maybe Ted can answer this question at a later date.

Determination always keeps the inquisitive detective on the job. I am like the preverbal elephant; I never forget. I had resolved to myself many years ago that I would never acquire the Goring Medals. Had Peter Paul Kubala sold then to any collector the world would have soon find out. When no such word was forth coming I knew that either Kubala still had them or had sold them without his fathers connection. Both were not logical thoughts, but I could think of no other reasonable deductive conclusion to make. Not until this past November when I read Christopher Ailsby’s story about his Campion/Goring Diamond Pilot Observer’s badge did I immediately know that Campion’s badge was not Goring’s badge. That is why I investigated the Campion story and went to the trouble to acquire the information from the RAF Museum to prove the point to myself, Ailsby and the collecting world. If Steve Previtera had not been reading the forum posts and called me and informed me that my long lost friend Edward P. Rich had written him, the story would have not been told. Ted mentioned to Steve the Goring medals, and our West Point days together trying to track them down as well as the elusive gold watch. Upon contacting Ted after all these years I have been able to tie all the loose ends together to put finality to the Goring Surrender medals story.

The end came long ago when shortly after I returned the Grand Cross to Basil Harr. I received a telephone call from a friend who lived in Bristol and he informed me that Basil’s home and his entire collection had been destroyed by fire. Only a few item that he had let a friend borrow were spared the flames of destruction that destroyed in a short few minutes what took Basil a lifetime to accumulate. Basil lived only a short time after the fire. I sadly never met with him again and I hold only fondest memories of a true gentleman and the epitome of a true collector.

Ted informed me that he was sure that Basil had come across the Goring Surrender Medals and acquired them directly or indirectly from Peter Kubala. Whether he bought them directly from Peter Kubala is not verifiable, but the time period corresponds with Kubala revealing the medals. Basil Harr didn’t appear to be rich man, but he lived comfortably. He always had funds to purchase anything he wanted, so I have no doubt that he paid who ever had the medals a hefty sum. He had many close friends in the collecting community who supplied him tips and information concerning high quality items that were on the market. I have no doubt that Basil heard about the Kubala items when the news broke that he had them. Finally, no sooner did the embers cool enough to allow the scavengers to pilfer the ruins of Basil’s home did the vultures converge on the hot ruins. With garden rakes and shovels they carried off fire damaged items. Basil had two 1939 Grand Crosses and one survived in very damaged condition. I ever knew if it was the one I took to West Point. It was sold to a major collector on the East Coast and has never surfaced to this day. Some of his daggers and swords were salvaged and sold also. Sadly they were fakes and no real value was lost except to Basil. I never told him his Kingston Daggers were fakes. I thought it best to let the old fellow enjoy then in the twilight of his life. Sadly, when the embers dies so did the spirit of Basil Harr.

I am satisfied that the Goring Medals taken from him in 1945 were lost to the flames that destroyed the famous Basil Harr Collection. I am finally satisfied that my investigation can finally be closed. As an old Kentucky State Police Detective friend of mine once told me concerning his conclusion about a case he had just finished, he simply said, "Prove me wrong. The evidence and facts just don’t lie."

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 12:56 AM

MY FINAL THOLUGHTS ON GORING'S MEDALS

When one seeks something so long and gets so close that you can all but reach out an touch it, and see it slip away, it causes one to get very upset to say the least. That was what happen with me when I couldn't acquire the Goring surrender medals after such a long quest to make them mine. I feel that they were destroyed in Basil's house fire, but even today the Grandson of Paul Kubula say he still has the medals. I often go again reality and all the proof I have accumulated against that possibility, but I had rather then be still in the Kabula family that in the ashes from Basil's fire. That way someone might get the opportunity I missed and acquire the rare medals of the Reichmarshall of the Third Reich. The next moment reality sets in and I know that those medals are like the rest of Goring's dreams; just a memory in time.

**dm5000** · 03-15-2002, 02:22 AM

Thanks...

Thanks Bill, I have saved the story in a Word document (with your copyright) so I wont have to ask again.

The “Holy Grail” of Third Reich medal collecting surrounded in mystery, thievery, lies, heartbreak, deceit and jealousy, all to be consumed in a great fire… sounds more like a Wagner opera or a Tolkein book then a story about medal collecting.

Is it your opinion that your friend also had HG’s P/O badge, Pour le Merit and EK1 with spange? And that they would have also been destroyed? I get a sickening feeling just thinking about it….

It would be quite nice if you were wrong and the Kubala kid still had them. Not only do I hate the idea of them being destroyed, I also hate the idea of the Kubalas cashing out on the Major’s thievery.

Thanks again,
Dave

**Mark S.** · 03-15-2002, 02:49 AM

And here is pictures of Gorings medal chest that Bill asked me to post. Sorr about the oversize pictures, but this is just too fantastic....I am in awe...

I sure would like know more about this Bill. Can you indulge us please?

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 03:05 AM

GORING'S CHEST FOR HIS DECORATIONS

My friend Otto Spronk passed these photo's along for us and this is what he said about the chest.

"I happen to have some photo's of the award chest that was especially made for him on occassion of his 50th birthday in 1943, given as a birthday-present by the city of Potsdam and were all his awards, orders and medals were kept in separat drawers with a colored porcelain painting of the particular order on the front of each drawer. There was decided that this chest including all his awards had to be donated to the Berliner Zeughaus after the end of the war. The chest was designed by L.A. Guillot and made in France, the porcelain-plaques with the colored painting of the particular order were done by the famous french porcelain factory of Sevres. Warm regards,
Otto"

I want to thank Otto again for letting us see into his fantastic Order Research and Photographic files. I had seen this chest in a poor quality photograph year ago, but nothing as clear as these Otto sent us. One can only imagine where all the orders, medals and badges once owned by Goring's are now. We know some are in the RAF Museum in England, once owned and donated by the English pioneer collector Eric Campion, but the rest are scattered throughout the world and lost to history.

**moranimal** · 03-15-2002, 01:18 PM

Absolutely fascinating!

Mr. Stump, what an interesting story. Things I would never have known had I not read this. Thanks for sharing.

Earlier it was asked about Hitler's medal(s) and/or award(s). At Balboa Park in San Diego in 1999 or 2000, there was an exhibit of materials from the Soviet archives concerning the Great Patriotic War. The second to final scene were items captured from the Bunker and/or Reichstag, including Hitler's coat. (Or at least one of them.) On it was a EK1, but I don't remember if the wound badge or blood order was present. I can't tell you if it was original, but Rommel's FM Baton was there, as well as numerous items from his office. Original? Don't know, but that's what I saw.

Also on display in the final scene were numerous EK1s, DKiG, DKiS, RK, etc. Banners, flags, and other accruements were there as well. Don't know what happened after it moved on, or to where it went. But the final two displays were worth the price of admission alone.

**Kyle Harrington** · 03-15-2002, 03:20 PM

Blood Order+Hitler

Dear all,

The photo of Hitler cannot be early 1920's as the Blood Order was not instituted until 1933.

**Dez H** · 03-15-2002, 04:11 PM

My mistake guys I meant 30's, Blood Order was instituted on 15 Mar 1934. The first name proposed for this awards was “The Sign of Honour for November 9, 1923.” And you thought “Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak leaves, swords and diamonds” was a mouthful.

Bill that is a truly amazing story, thanks for sharing. Was Hermann Goering’s Pour le Merite a part of the surrender group? I had always heard that this had been broken up along with Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz's diamond awards. Thanks once again for sharing.

Dez

**W. C. Stump** · 03-15-2002, 05:46 PM

GORING'S "BLUE MAX"

Dez, yes it was and it was one beautiful order. He was wearing it on a funny clasp, no ribbon, and his other medals were his PO with diamonds, Grand Cross with a large cravat like is seen on the Knights Cross of the War Merit cross, and the most gorgeous combination spange and W.W.I Iron Cross.

I have a special treat for everyone as soon as Mark get home and post it. It is the inside room at Karin Hall showing Goring's documents display and chest holding his many presentation documents. I don't think that has ever been featured. Now if anyone don't want to wait for Mark, email me and I will send it to you to post now.

**Dez H** · 03-15-2002, 06:12 PM

Bill is this the attachment method you refer to? This is the only colour photograph I have ever seen of Goering and it is a beauty. Here we can see Goering with his Grand Cross, Knights Cross and Pour Le Merite. Notice the ribbon bar is missing.

On a side note, has anyone ever noticed in photographs and footage of Goering. Sometime during the 1930’s Goering started wearing a Third Reich Pilots badge. Possibly a Pilots / Observer combo, instead of his Imperial one? Just a side point I noticed the other day watching something on TV.

Dez

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