Hi !
What you opinions of this badge.It`s not magnetic.
Thanks!
http://freiwilliger.narod.ru/sa.html
What you opinions of this badge.It`s not magnetic.
Thanks!
http://freiwilliger.narod.ru/sa.html
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Last edited by Freiwilliger; 06-29-2008, 10:08 AM. -
ANY OPINIONS?Originally posted by Freiwilliger View Post -
Hi.
I have studied these somewhat as I purchased one from a known dealer.
I may be way off but the hollow ones are original to the rally day and the solid ones (mine) are later knock off's to be worn by those who were there and purchased later. They are both widely faked and well done at that.
I am of the controversial belief that no items were RZM marked before late
'34. As the RZM got into full swing in early '35.
Also as a party pin collector, the oily looking 'blue' tint is a dead giveaway of a fake party pin as it occur's in poor quality metal.
IMHO JohnComment
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Sa-treffen
Hi - The first style SA-Treffen 1931 Braunschweig badge that was worn was shaped differently than yours. The 1st style is not as tall, and has a more "squished"appearance. These are pretty rare, and I believe that most sold today are reproductions. Your badge is the taller, 2nd style. Most you see are solid aluminum, but ones like yours are hard to find. They're very handsome, and usually have a nice patina like old silverware. I've seen 2 like this, and neither had any RZM markings. Usually the pin soldering is larger and more substantial. The bright blue coloring on the back at the top bothers me. It looks very unusual, not like the other two I saw. Some of the oak leaf detail looks OK, but some looks not as detailed. I may be wrong, but I think these stamped out versions preceeded the aluminum ones. Hard to tell on this one. Maybe good, maybe not. Personally, if it's very pricey, I'd pass.Comment
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1931
Freiwilliger,
These badges pretty much have been discuss at length and there is always mixed opinions on whats fake and whats not, with no definite answer being established. You can`t go by reference books because the ones I`ve seen have been dismissed as fakes according to whats been discussed on the forum. The two that I have I got from a highly respected dealer/collector. The first pattern was dismissed as a fake according to several opinions on this forum, even though the exact same badge is being offered on a website by a well known and highly respected dealer, and is also listed in studied reference books. So who do you believe? Good question. I guess we will never truly know. I`ll post a picture of the two I have just for "grins and giggles"Comment
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Badge
reverseComment
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The item shown here http://freiwilliger.narod.ru/sa.html is a authentic 2nd pattern SA-Branschweig badge made by Assmann just when this 2nd pattern was introducted. It was manufactured in 1936. I have a copy of the Assmann catalogue from 1936 and this item is shown with the same characteristics. The Braunschweig badges made for Assmann in the following years are quite different.
Regards from Spain.Comment
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As A Clarification, The Statement That The R Z M Did Not Become Organized Prior To 1935 Is Not Correct. It Was Actually Established Before Hitler Came To Power. By The End Of 1933, Control Had Been Established And Enforced For Standards On All Political Items.Comment
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Hi Bob,
There is a lot of confusion about the early RZM and when it started. I've cut and pasted some of the things out of my own RZM book that set some kind of timeline (to the best of my knowledge):
"According to the 1937 edition of the
Organisationsbuch, the Reichszeugmeisterei was
created by an executive order of the Fuhrer at
the end of 1928. It further states that beginning
on August 1, 1930, the RZM was placed
under the organizational authority of Franz
Xaver Schwarz’s Reichsschatzmeisterei.
On April 1, 1929 the SA
set up its own formal Quartermaster’s
Department to procure and distribute SA
uniforms and equipment.
In an order dated October, 1932, the SA High
Command set out the special insignia worn
by SA Quartermaster personnel. Their collar
patch was blue with gold piping - later
changed to carmine - with a gold “ZM”
cipher for “Zeugmeisterei” on the right patch.
Some sources have stated that the RZM was
in fact created in July, 1934. This is clearly
wrong, since the RZM was already making
regulations at least a month prior to that.
Regardless, it wasn’t until a Presidential
Decree of December 20, 1934, that all manufacturers
and sellers of NSDAP uniforms,
equipment and insignia were required to
hold a permit (“Erlaubnis”).
A further law also dated December 20, 1934
also required for the first time that
manufacturers display the new RZM logo,
the “Schutzzeichen”, on RZM-controlled
Party-related uniforms, equipment, badges
and insignia commencing on January 16,
1935. It specifies which Party insignia was
subject to RZM controls."
This final stage is the most relevant for collectors, as the RZM mark wasn't used before this date, and apparently manufacturer licenses weren't controlled / granted by the RZM until then - with most a few months following.
It seems that the RZM may have existed (not to be confused with the SA's own Quartermaster office), but had a very limited role and authority until late 1934.Last edited by sjl; 07-23-2008, 04:07 PM.Comment
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Does anyone have a photo from the Assmann catalog of the later solid backed badge?Comment
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Badge
I`m beginning to wonder if there really ever was a 1st pattern
Does anyone truly, without a shadow of a doubt ,100%, pinkie swear, really honest to God have a REAL 1st pattern???????
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It' amazing that for such a common badge "amount awarded" in relation to say the 29 RPT badge there seems to be more fakes or varations of this badge than most.Comment
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1. In this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=300979 Virginia posted an example of a 1st pattern badge from my collection. It´s quite different than the others shown here.
2. I posted the referred page of the Assmann´s catalogue in this forum almost one year before. If searching it can be find (I suppose). Two days ago I scanned once again the page to be sent to a member of this forum that asked it to me by pm. If somebody sent me his email address I can send the image another time to be posted here. Unfortunately I can´t post pics here at this moment.
3. Chris, Be sure, the 1st pattern does exist
Regards from SpainLast edited by Gregorio Torres; 07-26-2008, 06:23 AM.Comment
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