Badges with Both RZM and Ges. Gesch. Mark

[Killerbee]

Hello Everyone:

I have a general question. Can a HJ/ or any badge/pin have "both" a RZM mark and a GES. GESCH. mark? I almost never see them together, but I do occasionally come across some badges that do. In general, should I stay away from any badge that has both marks on it? Or is it ok? My gut says stay away. Any guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim

[sjl]

I think you're wise to generally stay away from them.

"GESETZLICH GESCHUTZ" has the same meaning as our "trademarked". Literally it is "legally protected", meaning someone has registered the rights to the design. If a manufacturer was making badges under contract or license (such as from the NSDAP), they put that on it to protect the design.

When the RZM system of regulating NSDAP badges, uniforms and equipment was announced December 20, 1934 (effective January 16, 1935) it essentially replaced the need for "GES. GESCH." as the law of Dec. 20, 1934 provided all the protection it needed (with hefty penalties for misuse - up to 2 years in jail).

The further system of license numbering for manufacturers that started about March 1935 replaced the need for manufacturer names or logos on badges.

Even so, some manufacturers used their logos for a short while plus the RZM marks, and as we see with the party pin in this thread (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=291101) because the whole RZM system was introduced over a few months some manufacturers got caught between rules as they came out, so we have "transitional" badges.

These badges are quite rare, and there is always the danger that collectors will take a rare badge as an exception to the rule and make it the new rules (ie - RZM logos without license numbers must all be good because we found one). Exceptions stay exceptions.

As for GES GESCH and RZM together on HJ or other pins, I would say for the above reasons it is possible, but has to be treated very sceptically, as they would fall into the same rare transitional category. The HJ Honour Badge in Gold is one of these badges, which shows on the early first run (which was late 1934 - early 1935) both the RZM logo and M1 license number, but also the "GES. GESCH." on the back. Later badges, such as the M1/120 "B" versions of the badge, don't have the GES. GESCH.

If a badge just has an RZM logo and "GES. GESCH." with no other markings (no M1 number or manufacturer name) I'd stay away regardless.

[Wim Vangossum]

I only can agree with Stephen...

Regards, Theo

[norwest]

I have a number of NSDAP party pins, and none of them have both "GES GESCH" and RZM on them. Anyone know of any exceptions with these pins?

--Kevin

[Wim Vangossum]

Kevin,

RZM or Ges. Gesch is common and just fine. Troubles started when they both are on the same badge. It could happens in a few cases. But often it is a bad sign considering originality.

Regards, Theo

[Norm F]

So is this NSV stick pin fake?

If I could just add to this thread from last year:
Here is my NSV stick pin with both an RZM and Ges. Gesch. marks. So from the previous discussion would this be considered fake then? Are these markings very different from other maker 76 markings?
Why would anyone fake such a low cost item?
Regards,
---Norm

[sjl]

You have a very early RZM pin of the NSV. This would date from the first months of 1935 when the RZM logo was introduced and the first license numbers issued, but before the "M1" prefix was added about mid-1935.

The "GES GESCH" disappeared shortly after this on RZM-controlled items, as the RZM system replaced the need to state something was "legally protected" (ie: trademarked).

The problem is when you see just the RZM logo and "GES GESCH" and no number at all.

[stuart a.]

Heres the back of my hj honor badge showing both ges gesch and rzm mark and the m1 prefix as stated by stephen
stu