Please Help about NSDAP Badge

[MH184]

You're more than welcome Bryan I hope they do help.


Terry,

I've had these a long time, the years are flying by, must have been the late 80's. Some time around then I bought Lumsdens, Detecting The Fakes, now EVEN I can spot the fakes in there and that is saying alot

He makes reference to badge markings and I've just stuck with that. The enamel glaze is imperfect on both and just not the quality I have on another one and others I have looked at.

On fake badges like this the RZM dosent have a horizontal line through the centre of the Z and also when the outer circumferential circle is devoid they still don't put a line through the Z.

This may be bollocks but I've always abided by it. I beleive they fake the labels in arm bands correctly, belts and others now which of course all vary to the badges slighty.

I've only gone by this I have no other reference, am I along the right lines here ?

Help.

Kind regards,

Marcus

[Richardxyz]

Terry, I have heard others say that the Deutschland Erwache badge in JR Cones excellent book is a fake. I am certainly not an authority on these badges but I still think that the RZM and Ges. Gesch. shouldn't appear together. Why should there be a patent pending when the badge is being produced under the auspices of the RZM, maybe someone has an answer to that one.

I have seen many more standard membership badges and when they are marked Ges. Gesch. they may have a makers name somewhere on the clasp or reverse but never have I seen a Ges. Gesch. and RZM together, only on the bright shiny blatant repros. An RZM should be accompanied by the appropriate M1 number to denote manufacturerer.

Marcus, I think Lumsden maybe wrong on his right and wrong RZM symbols there are exceptions to this rule. I have a Party badge that possesses a single circle around the RZM and it got the thumbs up when I posted it here. The obverse of the badge was textbook, could still be fake but I am beginning to doubt it. Single circle and uncrossed Z show up on other items aswell. I suppose you have consider it as one factor among many when appraising the authenticity of a piece.

Also check out the high z in the RZMs on the badges posted, I recall Frobler on his superb website discussing this anomaly.

[R v Kempen]

A few months back I contacted Frobler about my Deutschland Erwache badge M1/129.
I was concerned about the RZM marking as it didn't have the crossing in the Z

Here is his reply


Forgive me as, looking thru my email, I can only believe I missed your message and failed to respond. It's my opinion that your badge is authentic as it meets the requirements for authentic M1/129 badges. It's an ugly category because M1/129 badges are the most common form of fakes. And it's doubley ugly because of the issue about whether any badge with a 1933 date should bear an RZM stamp.

Deutschland Erwache badges were primarily made before 1933. None of those badges bear the date 1933 and all of the badges with the 1933 date bear an RZM stamp. I've been trying to research the RZM and there is one thing that appears clear. The RZM probably started stamping requirements in 1935. There were 2 laws passed, one at the end of 1934 that banned production of party items without permission of the state, and another in early 1935 specifying which of the more peripheral items were covered by the RZM. At this point I believe the RZM was a reaction to the first law, so that a government authority was in place to administer production.

So the problem is how a badge with a 1933 date would have an RZM mark, if the RZM only started marking requirements in 1935. The answer is that I believe these badges were commemorative badges issued at a later date. I think there was a situation in which, after the NSDAP took power and swallowed everything to the exclusion of other viewpoints, badges were produced commemorating the struggle (and in which the not so willing would be interested to prove they had always been supporters). The Heil Hitler Ludendorff badges are another example of this. Most of them were made later but also bear a 1933 date. They were mainly M1/129 products.

I won't go on, but the standard M1/129 authentic party badges are identical to yours in markings. It is conceivable I'm wrong about all this and the best anyone can do is guess, but I'm comfortable with your badge.

Frobler

Here is my badge

Richard

[R v Kempen]

Here is a fake Adolf Hitler badge

[TerryG]

Badges

Fair comments Marcus although I agree with Richard's comments that Lumsden's book may not be correct on the RZM logo thing . I must say that most of the fakes in there are very, very crude and obvious.
Marcus, your badges look ok to me, down to the circular ring at the back of one whcih is supposed to encircle the pin base. The enamel also look s ok although we cannot examine that part as well as you can. Can enamel be faked or is usually replaced by plastic? If so, you should be able to test the enamel with a heated needle...if it goes through the so-called enamel, I would assume it is not enamel. Am I on the right track here??
Anyway, I'll buy these off you for a couple of quid...
Bryan, have you looked at Frobler's site?

[MH184]

Hi,

I'm not comfortable with Richards badge it dosen't look right to me. I can't profess any great knowledge, just gut instinct and a little dangerous knowledge

I'm willing to learn more from my more in the know peers and any info. they can offer.

Out of interest for you, so you can correct me this is my line of thinking.



On these badges here the one in the middle is original, crossed Z and the finish is superb on the enamel, smooth all over no pit marks it looks like one layer.

On these other badges I deem to be fake, they are pitted not 100% smooth and not as I have seen on some genuine badges. As a rule these pitted, non smooth badges don't have the crossed Z, thats not to say they have to be but I did think that.

See what you think ?

Kind regards,

Marcus

[MH184]

1

[MH184]

On the picture above I believe the badge far left to be original, variations exist of course.

Below is an example of crappy enamel.

[MH184]

And another

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And again

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22

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g

[MH184]

That is the wrong picture but correct badge, this has a smooth finish and a crosed Z all the others don't ?

[Richardxyz]

Marcus,
I am inclined to agree with you about the Party badge on the left. The obverse looks textbook, nice round O and a correctly placed hyphen etc, the enamelling looks translucent aswell. I still can't get my head around the RZM and Ges. Gesch. on the reverse I am going around in circles.

The other enamels you posted the Arbeitsdank etc you think these are all repros? Even the Frauenschaft? Can you post pics of the reverse.

[MH184]

Richard,

I think the Frausenschaft is genuine, the others I'm more than dubious about. If the crossed Z dosen't matter so much why do all the badges I have and those I have seen look crappy when it's not crossed ? I keep asking myself this time and time again

The chances are I've just seen more fakes like this, than uncrossed geuine.

Here are the backs,

DJ
Frauenwerk
RAD pin
and the mothers one






DJ