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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    civil ss pin and party eagle

    appologeis for starting a fresh thread ,but im unable to reply in the for sale stands due to non membership, anyway, im interested in doug kenwrights pins, may i have a few independent opinions please, no offence mr kenwright. many thanks
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    #2
    Hi

    I have been cordially discussing these pins on and off and Doug was going to start a thread himself. Due to work commitments, he has been unable to do so and so here I am.

    I would like to take the opportunity to say that it has been refreshing to converse with someone who is open minded and attentive. Doug wants the same as me and that is to prove/disprove the originality of these pins once and for all. Let's hope we can get further down that road with this thread.

    Anybody who has contacted me about these pins knows my thoughts, but it is very easy to say 'It is a reproduction' but it is another matter to 100% categorically prove it.

    Here is the link to the sales thread:

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240824
    Last edited by Raymond Griffiths; 09-17-2007, 06:36 AM.

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      #3
      To save you some clicks, here are the images -

      Front of the pin
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        reverse of the pin.
        Attached Files

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          #5
          so you think not good then ? im interested as ive got one just 3 digits away, is this a red flag in itself?

          Comment

            #6
            Hi

            From my research on Hoffstätter manufactured SS-Zivilabzeichen, there are two types of pins that they produced that are visually different from the front.

            For the purposes of this thread, I think I will concentrate on the back as this is the area where there are the most differences between what is considered an authentic Hoffstätter pin and the pin shown above

            The main differences I will concentrate are:

            1. The maker mark is raised in nature, thus forming an integral part of the mould of the pin, rather than stamped which is more commonly seen. The type of back of original pins is also seen in other badges that were produced by the firm during the period.

            2. The application of the serial number. The Hoffstätter pins serial number was stamped, or indeed engraved in some early examples. The one on show is also stamped, but the stamping requires further examination as it is totally different from the usual method that was employed during the period.

            Should I need to, I will go into other differences with the commonly accepted norm which would lead one to believe these are reproductions, albeit quite old ones.

            So I will bore you no more with the ramble and show some images of the back of a couple of pins.

            Raymond

            Comment

              #7
              First, please look at the maker mark. The style of issue number did change and there are variations, but let us concentrate on the MM.
              Attached Files

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                #8
                And another with a low issue number, 4010
                Attached Files

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                  #9
                  Now here is an example of a pin which is similiar in construction, but one for the SA produced by the firm. Note the similarities with the MM on the SS-ZA. There are differences, of course, but its application is the same - stamped in around the edge of the badge
                  Attached Files

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                    #10
                    I will not spend much longer on this now and will do a comparison on the stamping.

                    As I have said previously, some issued pins were engraved, but the majority were stamped, especially as the number of pins issued increased dramatically.

                    I have not got a close up shot of Doug's pin, but with others that are the same type of pin, the font style is different and there is a small rectangular impression left around the number, to indicate that a single punch has been used.

                    Original Hoffstatter pins have a far superior look about the numbering. Here is an image to look at. Pay attention to the three and one! I expect to see differences in the stamps to a degree as the years of manufacture go by.

                    What I would find odd is using the method to stamp the numbers on Doug's pin and then revert back to the old method again.
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Raymond Griffiths; 09-17-2007, 08:23 AM.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Now take a look at the numbering on Doug's

                      Note the shape of the 3. It is totally different.

                      It is difficult to see and hopefully I can find a better image from the net somewhere, or Doug may add one.

                      There are a few other things that I am not happy about with these pins, but I feel that is sufficient information to be going on with and I don't really want to help the fakers get any better at making pins.

                      If you look at this from a purely logical perspective, you have to ask yourself why would the firm completely change the method of production and then go back to the previous method? Playing devils advocate for a moment, perhaps they wanted to try a new procedure and they did not like the results and so returned to the previously expected norm.

                      It is possible, I suppose, but given the numbers that are in existence of this type of reproduction, it would mean that they were operating two systems side-by-side for a while.

                      If anyone has an constructive comments to add then please join in.

                      Raymond
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Raymond Griffiths; 09-17-2007, 08:26 AM.

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                        #12
                        Now thats what i call an explanation many thanks Raymond

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                          #13
                          I had not really finished and was to add some more information if people objected to my observations, but many thanks for your comments

                          Raymond

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                            #14
                            Hi Raymond all too often you see the holy "fake" and nothing more its nice to see a detailed well worded explanation of why you think an item is right/wrong i know very little about pins so refrain from buying them armed with info of this caliber it makes things quite a bit easier
                            Cheers
                            James

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Afternoon gents..

                              Some very interesting points made by Raymond on these SS civil stickpins, a discussion that i hope i can add to..for years there has been a debate about the raised lettered Hoffstatter pins, even with the knowledge that some have been in long term collections, or veteran acquired..i hope to present a case that these are period, early Hoffstatter pieces..all input is welcome, along with pictures, and along with fellow collector Raymond G, hope to shed some light on these interesting and historic little pins..

                              THE THEORY..
                              type 1 and type 2 Hoffstatter pins


                              It seems that there are some five digit numbers with the later ( lets call it 2nd pattern or type..) Hoffstatter stamped logo with Ges Gesch..)

                              I am forming two chains of thought on these pins, and the more i look at them, the more a few things seem to stand out...

                              My first thoughts were that the Hoff. raised logo pins were the earliest of the two, and most often seen with 5 digit numbers on the back, and a plethora of different ring widths, but always black enamel over silver plate, with small,offset and wide spaced runes..

                              I noticed that in the examples given in the threads,there are some pins of the type we will refer to for reference as "type 2" with an earlier 5 digit number.This is strange unless you believe that the two types ran concurrently.I don't think they did.

                              Here is where it gets interesting.I believe that if we could find it, there is a type one pin with a high 5 digit number that is the end of type 1 , with the start of type two, with 6 digit numbers following.Here is where i have 2 questions...of the two makers Hoffstatter Bonn and Gahr, were they each assigned a block of numbers to fulfill? If so, could one or the other manufacturer fill gaps in the others block if a need arose?

                              I have a feeling that the type two Hoffstatter pins with 5 digit numbers are either a)replacement pins with original numbers stamped on OR they are filling blocks of numbers given to Gahr, that they could not fill for whatever reason (and Hoff. could, as they were the bigger concern, and the premiere supplier..)

                              This leads to the next train of thought...i believe that the change from the Hoff. type 1 to the type 2 was necessary in order to standardize
                              the size of the rings, size of the runes, as well as their placement on the obverse..you will notice that the type 2 has fatter , squatter runes, and that they are placed much closer together and are not as dramatically offset as the first type.This change constituted the basis of the more traditional "look" of the runes, with which we are more familiar...

                              I believe it was this change that necessitated the addition of the Ges Gesch on the back of the pin, protecting what was theirs so to speak, a refinement of the breed..after all it was an SS man, Walter Heck who designed the SS runes, and later worked for Hoffstatter as a graphic artist..

                              Gahr, as far as i know, were very loose on numbering their pins..i have seen one still attached to a card stock that gives its number (but no numbering on the pin..) as well as completely numbered pieces (2x) that had 6 digit numbers..


                              I will include images collected from various sources for examples..i have endeavoured to credit pics where possible, where i could not, please inform me, and i will add it to this thread..

                              up next the pics..

                              A)-Eric Seat B)-Gary Wood C)-Antiquearmsandarmour.com
                              D)-Kursk Collection E)-Matt GDC Brazil
                              Attached Files

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