Half Size Blood Order

[ErichS]

Not having a dog in this fight, but it's interesting that a lot collectors must have only militaria that falls into the nitch as being textbook as being original. I don't think that the Nazis had the collector market in mind when they were producing their decorations 70yrs ago. We all would like to have full proof evidence that a piece existed but I myself like to keep an open mind when new pieces surface.

[Richard]

Boy this is a heated debate and hopefully it won't get out of control. I'd have to chime in on the side that doubts the authenticity of these. When miniatures are compared to the full size versions, the quality differences might be there but the design of the full size version is never as different as this item looks when compared to its full size cousin.

It is interesting to see that some are asking to prove this is a fake. In past discussions of an anomalous item such as this, the burden of proof has always rested with the one trying to prove it is real. Most items that are encountered in small numbers are never assumed to be real unless they can be favorably compared to those items of which there is no doubt of authenticity, or of which period photos exist, or which are pictured in catalogs, etc. If the burden of proof rest with the camp that believes it is fake, does that mean we should accept all unusual finds as real until proven otherwise? This seems a bit backwards to me.

I can see absolutely no reason for this item to exist. You either wore the medal or the ribbon. There was never even a ribbon bar device as a miniature.

I know of very few awards that were created specifically for the surviving relatives of the fallen, the Hindenburg widow's cross and next of kin Spanish Cross coming immediately to mind. Both of these were manufactured close to and in pretty much the same size as the awards to the living. The BO had a much higher significance than either of these so why would they cheapen it by giving relatives such a small token in a non-precious metal?

Craig, I have to disagree that if this item were manufactured as a fake we would see more of them. I would agree the cost to machine dies and strike something like this would be hefty. But look at some of the high end fakes we are seeing on the market today. They aren't flooding the market and in some cases I see fewer of the fakes than I do of originals. Who can say what it would cost to manufacture these if you had the right contacts, tools and connections? Obviously many fakes on the market today were not manufactured in high numbers and possibly that can be attributed to the high cost of the originals. Perhaps it is the same here?
Richard V

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Richard,

Thank you for the post made with good grammar, as well as reasoning, without immature hysteria.

The mini Blood Orders have been around, at least sindce the early 1960's, when I started collecting. They were never around in any quantity.

You are incorrect about size of the Spanish Cross for Next of Kin. It is much smaller than the award piece; around 25 to 30% of the award piece.

As for items found in sm,all numbers being considered fake: I would think I can recognize Oak Leaves Swords and dDiamonds as well as German Crosses with Diamonds. I have handled and owned enough originals, but most collectors have not. Because something is found in small numbers does not logically follow that it is questionable, but quite the opposite.

I really do not know the purpose of the minis. I see no reason to wear one, if you have been awarded the medal. A ribbon could be worn on civilian clothing, if so desired. I wonder if they are not some privately commissioned token for surviving members meetings, of that exclusive club. It is also possible that they were commercially sold, but that seems unlikely, with a party award, of this stature. There were annual 9. November celebrations with the Blood Order winners holding a prominent place in the festivities. Who knows, but I do know they are not something I have run across, with any regularity.

I only posted it looking for information, not accusations, insults, and grief. I am just a student of militaria, and am always willing to learn.

Bob Hritz

[Richard]

Hi Bob, I think it will be impossible to judge the authenticity of these until something appears in the collecting world, such as a period photo or an actual untouched German veteran's lot that has the medal as a part of it. Even with the second, doubts could exist since many veterans have picked up pieces postwar that they have added to their "stash".

Sorry about the misinformation on the next of kin SC. I had truly thought it was closer in size but at least it isn't as much of a difference as these anomalous medals and the actual BO. Unless something surfaces, these may take a place in the collecting world like the DKiG with the dotted date. I may be out of touch here too as I was with the SC but I believe that this has never proven to be fake or real. As such it has its believers and its detractors, with each having to leave it to their own judgment whether or not to have one in their collection.

Though it would be great if these turned out to be a genuine item, I have doubts based mostly on the points I made in my previous post. I just can't see the purpose for them. For the original recipients, they just don't make sense. For a next of kin item, I would have thought they would have been awared something special (like the HK for widows or SC for next of kin) made exclusively for that purpose. This seems to be too small a token to provide someone's relatives that had such an important place in the minds of the powers that be of that time.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes to light on these. Right now I think it depends on your level of comfort. Or in some cases, if you didn't spend a fortune on it, it is worth keeping to see if anything is ever resolved. Not a great loss if proven fake but a nice win if proven real.

Bob, I in no way meant to imply that items of which few exist are therefore fakes. We all know that great rarities exist (such as the Oaks w/swords or Oaks w/swords and diamonds or for that matter the KC of the KVK and others) of which few were produced and usually fewer were awarded. I just meant to state that in some cases those items that are purported to be fake seem to be as scarce or scarcer than the originals.

To cite an example. The Sieger badges from the HJ competitions in 1938, 1939 and 1944. When you get to the Gau and Reich levels of these badges they are scarce to rare. The ones that have been discussed at length on this forum as being reproductions (albeit excellent reproductions with some minor differences in color of the enamel, feathers of the eagle and the MM) are not flooding the market as one would think. Obtaining one of these reproductions is nearly as hard as finding one of the originals. Bill Shea has one of the Reichs level on his website now that has been deemed one of these reproductions. I would think if someone went to the trouble of creating such a complex badge consisting of multiple pieces and different colors of enamel, that the market would see more of them to justify the cost of what has to be expensive production.

All this was merely meant as a rebuttal to Craigs hypothesis that because the market isn't flooded with these mini BOs it must lend credence to the fact they are real. It was in no way meant to imply that items of which few exist are always fake. I hope this makes sense as I'm really having a bit of a difficult time trying to explain this in writing.
Richard V

[Craig Gottlieb]

Richard: Excellent post. Please understand that I don't for a moment believe that something rare is by definition real. All I meant to say is that the ultra-small number of them would be one small point in favor of them being real. I'm merely thinking as a businessman. If I was going to make a bunch of fakes, I'd make a LOT of them, not just 4 or 5! In most cases, when investigating, I like to follow the money.

[Richard]

Craig, From a business perspective, I have to agree with you. It makes little sense to produce expensive items if you don't have enough sales to cover your production costs and still make a profit. I have always been amazed to see such things as the Seefahrt ist Not tinnie being reproduced. How can you expect to make money on a tinne that will cost as much to sell as an original?

So it does make me wonder how much it would cost to produce something like this. The cost involved in creating a die and striking something like this would certainly entail a bit of time as well as cost. I have to assume it can't cost as much as you and I imagine when I think about the mass of tokens, fake coins and medallions I've seen produced out there that go for next to nothing. It would be interesting to have someone knowledgable in this field provide some accurate figures of the cost involved in producing something like this..
Richard V

[Craig Gottlieb]

Me too - I'd really like to find this out.

[ErichS]

Looking back at old threads I find this one most interesting. When the rules changed in 38 on the awarding of the BO to include those who died in the service of the Party it would seem logical and probable that the survivors would have been issued the second pattern BO and not a mini version. Any new thoughts or ideas on this?