2nd Pattern Blood Order Question

[Panzer Rob]

I once owned a 2nd pattern 167*, I cannot remember to be honest the last digit, however it was off superb quality.By the way Rob I have found
bits and bobs re: Otto Ertl please send me your address and I will post them to you.
Cheers

Kyle-

Sent you a email. Thanks!
Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Number 4188 is the highest I have come across.Kyle's assesment is correct.However there is no question in my mind the 2nd pattern recipients deserved the award,as we have discussed elsewhere on the forum.Weitze eventually sold the medal you talk about Rob, I was offered it but decided to pass.I did have some reservations on it to be totally honest. I'm really not going to collect them in the 4000 range, the finish is no where as nice as the first pattern or the earlier second patterns, IMO.

Jon- I looked at the images I have of 4139 and they indeed came off of Weitze's site. When you say you had reservations, do you think it was one of the blank 2nd patterns that surfaced and was numbered post-May 1945? The numbers do look a bit crude to me.

Rob, I have scored 2 first pattern medals recently with second pattern Besitz-Urkunde , where the holder has lost his brown first patt wearers document and had it replaced with the red 2nd patt wearers document,mathing numbers of course.

Spectacular! I've been trying to locate a possession doc for a 1st pattern BO for some time now with no luck. But to have two, WITH the matching Blutorden, well... that's just incredible, mate

Rob

[ErichS]

Erich, I sent you a PM.

[Jon Fish]

[quote=Rob Johnson;1941427]Jon- I looked at the images I have of 4139 and they indeed came off of Weitze's site. When you say you had reservations, do you think it was one of the blank 2nd patterns that surfaced and was numbered post-May 1945? The numbers do look a bit crude to me.


Rob,No small scratches in the places they should be, not sharp details, rust on silver !?,funny numbering, lots of small things like finish and other pointers I look for, on this one I don't like. I passed on it purely because I feel its a new breed of fake, but this is only my gut feeling having studied a lot of Blutorden.A good friend who also knows his Blood orders was of the same opinion as me on this one and also passed when he was offered the medal.
Weitze sold it the week he listed it.

[ErichS]

I was talking to a very famous west coast dealer and he just purchased a BO with the # 4326. Awarded in 1944?

[ErichS]

Correction, He is hoping to purchase above mentioned BO # 4326.

[Robin Lumsden]

I can't recall seing any 2nd patterns in the 1500 or 1600 series,yet.

Jon.

My solitary Blood Order is a second pattern and is numbered '1627'.

It came with a bundle of British vet pick-up stuff found in northern Germany, most relating to an SS officer called Riecken who served in an NSDAP capacity with Lohse in the Eastern Ministry. Both men came from the Schleswig-Holstein area. As far as I can ascertain, Riecken never received the Blood Order.

Mine seems to have been issued around the first half of 1939. A Karl Maas of Itzehoe is a possible candidate, and was also from northern Germany.

All a bit of a mystery...........the BO still has its original buttonhole ribbon.

[Panzer Rob]

Jon.

My solitary Blood Order is a second pattern and is numbered '1627'.

It came with a bundle of British vet pick-up stuff found in northern Germany, most relating to an SS officer called Riecken who served in an NSDAP capacity with Lohse in the Eastern Ministry. Both men came from the Schleswig-Holstein area. As far as I can ascertain, Riecken never received the Blood Order.

Mine seems to have been issued around the first half of 1939. A Karl Maas of Itzehoe is a possible candidate, and was also from northern Germany.

All a bit of a mystery...........the BO still has its original buttonhole ribbon.

Robin-

Sounds like a super-early 2nd pattern you've got there!!! Outstanding I know you're extremely thorough with your research, so if you haven't been able to find anything on Riecken I don't think there's much anyone can offer for advise for further research. Just curious, how did you come up with the name Karl Maas?

All a bit of a mystery...........the BO still has its original buttonhole ribbon.

Ah, but that's part of what I like most about the unidentified 2nd patterns - the mystery that surrounds the former owner, the research and the possibility of a master list turning up one day that will finally, once and for all put names with numbers. Personally, I think second patterns are undervalued by most collectors. If a list does surface... well, watch the value of those 2nd pat's jump

Rob

[Bob Hritz]

I have a different opinion of the 2nd model Blood Order. The original awardees, of the initial pattern, had to have been participants in the actual march to the Bavarian government offices on November 9th. This was a revolution and those participants were honored with a special decoration.

The moment you change the rules, you dilute the importance of the award, and the men who took the risks to earn that medal. I would have hoped for a different award for those who did not participate in the Putsch, but who had done acts in the Kampfzeit that would merit special recognition.

It seems that those who did not participate in the Putsch would have felt out of place on the 8/9 November annual celebrations. I would think the actual participants in the Putsch would have shunned those 'pretenders'.

From all that I have read, I agree that Martin Bormann was responsible for the change in the qualification for the Blood Order. He so coveted that award that he used his influence over Hitler to get the criteria ammended to fit his circumstances. So then did the flood gate open.

Bob Hritz

[Panzer Rob]

Missed this reply before, Jon, sorry!

Did you get to see this one in hand? From the pics I didn't like it but as you know it's almost always a totally different story in hand. I personally don't care for it, but I hate dismissing anything without ultra-high quality pictures or a hands on inspection. I trust your judgment, so if you say it's not for your collection, then that's enough for me

Rob


[QUOTE=Jon Fish;1942331]

Jon- I looked at the images I have of 4139 and they indeed came off of Weitze's site. When you say you had reservations, do you think it was one of the blank 2nd patterns that surfaced and was numbered post-May 1945? The numbers do look a bit crude to me.


Rob,No small scratches in the places they should be, not sharp details, rust on silver !?,funny numbering, lots of small things like finish and other pointers I look for, on this one I don't like. I passed on it purely because I feel its a new breed of fake, but this is only my gut feeling having studied a lot of Blutorden.A good friend who also knows his Blood orders was of the same opinion as me on this one and also passed when he was offered the medal.
Weitze sold it the week he listed it.

[Robin Lumsden]

How did you come up with the name Karl Maas?

Rob.

The Patzwall listing has many gaps...........Maas was next on his list, but without a confirming number.

[Robin Lumsden]

Another interesting point...............

So far as I have been able to ascertain, this medal wasn't actually referred to as the 'Blood Order' until the second pattern was authorised.

The first pattern was always the 'Decoration of 9th November'.

As the second pattern went in part to all those NSDAP members killed in Party service during the Kampfzeit, I think that's what led to it being renamed the Blood Order. It wasn't the connection to the putsch and the 'Blood Flag'.

And..........it moved up a grade from being a 'decoration', to an 'order'.

Sort of makes the second pattern more important (or at least just as important) as the first.

Bottom line though............like Bob says...........the second pattern was a bit of a slap in the face for the putsch vets.

[Panzer Rob]

Bob-

I agree with you 100% - there is no doubt that the 1st pattern Blood Order was one of the most prestigious, highly revered and highly coveted awards of the NSDAP and perhaps the entire lifespan of the 3rd Reich, and for obvious reasons the recipients of the original first patterns must have looked down on those who were awarded the 2nd pattern when it was issued. Confronted with a choice between the two, I too would go with a 1st pattern over a 2nd pattern for my collection, but I still think the second patterns are still quite interesting and the story as well as the mystery that surrounds the original owners - and also the possibility that they will one day be identified - makes them collectible in my book

Rob

I have a different opinion of the 2nd model Blood Order. The original awardees, of the initial pattern, had to have been participants in the actual march to the Bavarian government offices on November 9th. This was a revolution and those participants were honored with a special decoration.

The moment you change the rules, you dilute the importance of the award, and the men who took the risks to earn that medal. I would have hoped for a different award for those who did not participate in the Putsch, but who had done acts in the Kampfzeit that would merit special recognition.

It seems that those who did not participate in the Putsch would have felt out of place on the 8/9 November annual celebrations. I would think the actual participants in the Putsch would have shunned those 'pretenders'.

Bob Hritz

[Panzer Rob]

Rob.

The Patzwall listing has many gaps...........Maas was next on his list, but without a confirming number.

Robin-

You can say that again. Just recently a first pattern BO and possession doc surfaced that did not match up with the name and info Patzwall had listed in his book. It's a good reference point but - like so many other books out there - shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Thanks for the reply! I wish you luck in your search

Rob

[Robin Lumsden]

I wish you luck in your search.

Thanks Rob.

Funnily enough, here's where I'll be tomorrow at this time.....................