The case of the fake HJ Sieger badges

[Richard]

There has been much posting and discussion over a series of HJ sieger badges purported to be fake. The characteristics of these purported fakes are that the enamel background is white not cream colored, the eagle exhibits some differences in comparison with those deemed genuine, the MM (Brehmer Markneukirchen) has the M and A in Markneukirchen touching in those deemed fake versus those deemed genuine. I have studied these badges for some time and have noticed all these differences and wanted to start an honest discussion on the merits of these fakes as possible genuine examples based on several observations. I will put forth the findings in this thread and will welcome any discussion on this topic so that we all may learn.

Unfortunately in this hobby many deemed fakes prove real over time and vice versa. All too often known provenance of a very few pieces deems all those that don't conform to these as fake because they are different. Sometimes the fakery can be proved (as in the case of the floch fakes with a known post war manufacturer) but many times the word fake is applied simply because a piece does not conform to the few pieces with provenance in every detail.

I will put forth some observations and some conclusions supplemented with photos and hope that something will come of the discussion. Please limit your comment of "it's real" or "it's fake" with something that backs up your assessment. "it doesn't conform to known origininals" really isn't much of an argument as many originals don't conform to the average textbook example. Please back up any conclusions with some type of data. Hopefully we can all learn from this thread.

Pictured below are 4 HJ Sieger badges. The first three are, from left to right, a 1938 Reichssieger (MM G. Brehmer) that has been labeled a reproduction, a 1939 Kreissieger (MM A. G. Tham) accepted as original and a 1938 Kreissieger (MM G. Brehmer) also accepted as origina..

The most obvious differences between those accepted as original and those labeled reproductions are:

1. The background enamel is cream colored on the accepted originals and is white on those deemed fakes.
2. The M and A in Markneukirchen on the MM are separated in the accepted originals and touch in the deemed fakes.
3. The eagles neck on the accepted originals is longer and more narrow and is more squat and fat on deemed fakes.
4. The lower of two dots on the top of the wreath of known originals is clear and does not touch the rim of the metal edge that surrounds the enamel whereas those deemed fakes have that dot touching that rim.
5. The catch on accepted originals is roundwire or flatwire with a seam whereas the deemed fakes have a flatwire catch with no seam.
6. Lettering and date on the accepted originals is generally thinner than on those deemed as fakes.

These differences are significant and can certainly tell one type from another with a quick inspection. The quality of both is excellent. The enamel is perfect, the construction is of high quality and base metals and materials used are identical. Though pin differences have been mentioned, I really can't see any significant differences between accepted originals and deemed fakes in the pin or hinge.

First the pictures of the badges being discussed where most of the differences mentioned above are obvious. The color diffences in the enamel may not be too obvious but the two Kreissieger badges have cream color and the two Reichssieger badges have more of a white.

[Richard]

If fakers were going to the trouble of duplicating an expensive badge, one would assume they would duplicate any obvious visual appearance such as the color of the enamel. This is one of the major criteria used to distinquish the accepted originals with the deemed fakes. One would postulate that any faker would pay less attention to those minute details that most would not see without magnification. This is where the comparison becomes interesting. Please note below scans of the HJ diamond from the 1938 Brehmer Kreissieger badge and the 1939 Tham Kreissieger badge. Note very carefully the difference in the pattern of the stippling (dots) under the red enamel. Two different manufactureres, two different dies and two different HJ badge stippling patterns. This would make sense.

[Richard]

Now it would be rare for a faker to miss such obvious things like color of enamel, catch type or an eagles neck yet pay attention to microscopic details. Now take a look at the comparison of the HJ diamonds from the accepted original 1938 Brehmer Kreissieger badge and the deemed fake 1938 Brehmer Reichssieger badge. They are identical and have obviously come from the exact same dies. This seems to be a bit odd and would mean one of several things:

1. if the Reichssieger is fake, the fakers went to the detail of duplicating the dot pattern of the HJ diamond exactly (which would only be discernable under magnification) but missed the dreadfully obvious differences in the eagle and other "macro" issues that are visible without magnification.
2. The possibility exists that, if fake, the producers of the Reichssieger badge had left over stock of HJ badges from Brehmer to assemble their badges.
3. The Reichssieger badges are actually original, the other obvious differences being due to period or style of manufacture. Perhaps the white enamel pieces were replacements.

The first picture shows the lower half of the diamond from the accepted original Kreissieger badge, the second the deemed fake Reichssieger. Note the pattern of stipling under the red enamel is identical.

[Richard]

Now, to take it another step farther, below are the pictures of the lower half of the HJ diamond of the 1938 deemed fake Reichssieger and the 1939 deemed fake Reichssieger. It would be rare for a faker to make two different dies for the same item since this would run into additional expense. Yet in the comparison below, it can be seen that while the 1938 badges (accepted original Kreissieger and deemed fake Reichssieger) have identical stipling patterns under the red enamel of the HJ diamond, the 1939 badge has a different pattern altogether. Why would a faker go to this trouble? Couple this with the fact that neither the accepted originals or the deemed fakes ever have appeared in large numbers. Both are rare and rarely seen in the market. Without any facts surrounding the deemed fakes, I would wager to say they could be original as well. I would welcome any additional input towards this discussion so that we all may learn. I would really like to see the stipling pattern on an accepted original 1938 and 1939 Reichsieger HJ diamond for comparison.
Richard V

[Don Scowen]

I firmly believe that the HJ rhombus on your 1938 Kreissieger which you hold up as original has been tampered with & replaced. Here are my reasons:

1 On 1938 Kreissiegers, the top of the rhombus always covers the toes of the eagle & reaches up to the bottom of the leg feathers, yours does not.

2 On 1938 Kreissiegers, the bottom of the rhombus never passes below the base line of the bottom cog tips by more than a tiny fraction, if at all, which yours clearly does. This is even more noticeable from the reverse images. The low rhombus is only seen on 1939 Kreissiegers like the Tham you show.

3 From the hundreds of images I have of original 1938 Kreissiegers taken from both private collections & dealers pieces, none of the dot patterns match the one on your '38.

Therefore it is obvious that at some point in time the rhombus from your 1938 Kreissieger has been replaced to match the ones used on the Brehmer fakes (please note I am not suggesting that this was done by yourself).

Here is a quick knock up showing a small comparson.

First the front

[Don Scowen]

Reverse

[Don Scowen]

Dot patterns from all thre levels of the award. Also notice the bottom tips in comparison to the level of the cogs as previously mentioned.

[Richard]

Good observation Don. I had never noticed the diamonds position on the 1938 Brehmer Kreissieger before and had not even considered that it might have been replaced as a possibility. In examining the badge, it doesn't appear to have been tampered with. Any ideas as to how the attachment was made? Were there guides on the badge under the diamond to help in positioning or was it a freeform issue?

Do you have the ability to place the dot pattern of the 1939 presumed fake next to one of the dot patterns from your badges, preferrably the 1939 Reichssieger and 1938 Reichssieger? If possible, it would also be interesting to add the diamond from the 1939 Tham badge. I'd like to compare those as well. It seems interesting that if the Kreissieger badge has a replaced diamond that it would wind up being the exact same one that was used on the presumed fake for 1938 and that the 1939 presumed fake would have a different pattern altogether. I received the 2 presumed fakes from an entirely different source than the 1938 Brehmer Kreissieger.
Richard V

[Don Scowen]

In examining the badge, it doesn't appear to have been tampered with. Any ideas as to how the attachment was made? Were there guides on the badge under the diamond to help in positioning or was it a freeform issue?

Thinking again, your badge may not have been actually "tampered" with but "post war" finished for want of a better term. Unfinished badges occasionally turn up on the market, a number these could have been picked up by the fakers & finished off...... Untill today, the dot pattern wasn't an area that I had looked at as closely as other areas.

Below are two examples of genuine unfinished badges sometimes seen offered for sale at considerably lower prices than finished ones. As you can see there are two fixing styles, one with a guide groove one without, but either way you'd have to keep the edge points at the correct place or it would look wrong

[Don Scowen]

Do you have the ability to place the dot pattern of the 1939 presumed fake next to one of the dot patterns from your badges, preferrably the 1939 Reichssieger and 1938 Reichssieger? If possible, it would also be interesting to add the diamond from the 1939 Tham badge. I'd like to compare those as well. It seems interesting that if the Kreissieger badge has a replaced diamond that it would wind up being the exact same one that was used on the presumed fake for 1938 and that the 1939 presumed fake would have a different pattern altogether. I received the 2 presumed fakes from an entirely different source than the 1938 Brehmer Kreissieger.
Richard V

Here are the Reichs level awards, unfortunately I only have one image of a '38 large enough to see the dot pattern & the enamel is damaged on this one as you can see. The original '38's are the rarer of the two Reichs level awards.

[Don Scowen]

Here is the Tham comparison as requested. I can't see any problems with this badge, all the points I would look for on a Tham badge are here & from what I can see on the rhombus, this too.

[Richard]

Some interesting comparisons here Don. It appears the dot patterns on the 1938 Reichs- and Gausieger badge diamonds are identical to one another but the Kreissieger is different. Additionally there must have been at least 2 types of diamonds used based on your unfinished badges as one type would have had a raised ridge on the reverse to fit into the groove whereas another would have had to have a flush reverse. This also becomes apparent in the diamonds you show on the Tham badges as one type appears to have a thicker swastika than others even though the dot patterns appear identical.

I have another question on the unfinished badges. I notice that the Gausieger badge is not finished in silver but rather the same bronze color as the Kreissieger. I would have thought the silver color would have been on the parts of the badge prior to assembly but your badge seems to indicate otherwise.

To throw some additonal fuel into the fire. Weitze has a Kreissieger on his site that appears to combine aspects of the purported reproductions and the originals. It is a Brehmer badge, the eagle matches the badges recognized as original rather than the more stunted neck on the purported reproductions. What is different is that the lettering is much thicker as in the purported reproductions and the lower dot at the upper part of the wreath appears indistinct and misshapen. It is hard to tell what the true color of the enamel is but the dot pattern in the diamond appears to conform more to the examples you have shown as original. I can't make out if the M and A in the MM on the reverse touch or are separated. The catch appears to be the correct round wire catch rather than the flat wire catch normally seen on the badges with the white enamel.

I have never seen a Kreissieger in the style of the assumed reproductions, only Gau- and Reichssieger level awards. Even so, the badge on Weitze's site doesn't exactly conform to the labeled reproductions. Here are some pictures.
Richard V

[Don Scowen]

Thank you Richard. Forgive me as I will reply over a couple of posts so as to keep things clear in my head, also so as to post some images, sorry for plodding on so long......

Yes I agree that there seems to have been at least 2 variations of rhombus, assuming that the groove wasn't just to allow for the adhesive to form a better grip in some way.... An area that need more study, I'd like to rip one apart to see how they were made but I just can't bring myself to do it........

Regarding the unfinished badges. My apologies, I cobbled this picture together from two separate images, so the colours may not be accurate. Below is a picture of the reverse of the Gau level, I think this shows that it is indeed silver, unpolished, dirty & unloved maybe, but silver.

Cheers
Don

[Don Scowen]

Regarding Weitze's Kreis.

The font on the obverse is a little sloppy & shown on it's own without any other points, it would worry me. However, we must remember that these were hand finished & the enamel was applied by hand. I can't imagine trying to fill such small areas with a steady hand.... There are other examples with sloppier than normal lettering, I'll show one below.

Whilst on first look the lower berry does look to be indistinct, on close inspection I think that it either down to a poor image or possible damage in that area. The space below the berry is there & the berry is not cramped & touching the lower rim as can bee seen with many fakes.

The maker mark is OK, the M & A are not touching & the M & E on the top line are the correct distance apart. All of the other points I look for on the maker mark are present as well.

Colour is always difficult to see in an image, especially when flash or bright light is used so can't always be used unless the piece in hand. However, all of the other 20 points that I would look for on an image of a badge are there, two of them are weak (berry & lettering) but the others outweigh these. If I had the badge in hand, there would be a further 6 points I'd check but I'm sure it's OK.

Below is another cobbled image.
Top pic, close up of berry from Weitze's piece showing spacing etc. Middle pic maker mark also from Weitze's piece, M & A are not touching, M & E on the top line are the correct distance apart. And the bottom image from a different Kreis badge showing some other letters not as well formed & thickened compared to the "norm", here that ivory of the background is easier to see I think.

Cheers
Don

[Don Scowen]

I have never seen a Kreissieger in the style of the assumed reproductions, only Gau- and Reichssieger level awards.
Richard V

I do not have a clear image of the 1938 Kreis, but here is a picture of the full set of '38 fakes. My apologies for the poor quality, they were the ones used by a seller trying to shift the whole group.

Obverse