I just picked up this badge at a local auction. I believe genuine examples of this badge are somewhat hard to come by. I believe this badge to be OK. Any other opinions good or bad are welcome. Also what would be the approximate value? Mike
-
-
The reverse. -
Hello Blankewaffen
i don't like the RZM mark on your badge and what i find strange is the wear on the obverse while the reverse is stone mint
i'm not an expert on these and i'm sure other members will correct me if i'm wrong,but if i would find one with these characteristics my gut would tell me to leave it where it is
JMHO
RichardComment
-
there should be a break in the bottom of the RMZ out side circle, and your looks as tho it's a complete circle and thats wrong. hate to say it but it's a fake.....
Comment
-
Hello Mike, it would be hard to judge this badge without examining it in person.
The obverse appears to look fine. I agree with Richard van Kempen's remarks on the RZM mark. Though it is technically correct, there is something about it that does not look right and I can't put my finger on it. Call it instinct. It is not the "textbook" mark, as it is missing the crossbar to the Z, but this in itself is not a mark of a fake. The outer ring is correctly solid (I hate to contradict dragonman, but I believe he may have gotten his rings mixed up). It is the inner ring that has an opening at the bottom between the legs of the M. An outer ring with an opening would be a definite sign of a bad RZM mark. There is something about the size and proportion of the three letters that just does not seem quite right.
The reverse being mint and the obverse looking worn wouldn't really concern me greatly. If worn, it is the reverse that would be most protected and therefore could easily exhibit less wear. However, it does appear that the reverse has an unnatural metallic sheen unlike that on the obverse.
This pin set up has been used on these types of badges, but until now, I have only seen this on badges marked with letters and without a member number. Since I have not seen every badge ever produced, this could still be correct. It would seem that this would be a more expensive fake to produce using this type of pin. Most have a simple pin that is much like that found on tinnies. This one is more like the ones found on military badges.
The M number (M1/120) corresponds to Wilhelm Deumer, Ludenscheid, so it is attributable to an actual manufacturer.
A genuine badge of this type would sell between $150 to $250 dollars depending on a variety of conditions (condition of the badge, low member number). There is really nothing that just screams fake, but the RZM mark and unnatural metallic sheen of the reverse would make me hesitant to be a buyer.
Richard VComment
-
First, thanks everyone for the replies so far. Personally I believe the badge to be good though I could be mistaken. The reverse of the badge does have a brighter finish than the front but I believe this is due to it being mostly protected by the pin assembly. The areas on the reverse at the 3 and 9 o clock sections at the tips of the diamond do show some wear that matches the finish on the front. This would be the natural area that would show some wear if the badge had been worn. This does not show up on my photo. Also the pin assembly is VERY neatly attached to the badge, much better than I would expect to see on a reproduction. The badge is also nicely slightly vaulted which I would not expect on a fake. Gailen David had a M1/120 badge exactly like mine on his web site several months ago.To my eyes it was a perfect match, of course the serial number was different. He stated that the pattern of the pebbles on the front were the key to authenticate this maker's badge. The pebble pattern on my badge matched his example completely. MikeComment
-
Nice Piece
Mike-
It's a crying shame that we have to be so cognizant of fakes - seems as if everything can be live or memorex....
Anyway - it is an interesting piece - I've got a few references that I'll take a peek at and see if I can get you some additional G2.
Regards-
Kevin
Comment
-
I really think that it would be somewhat unlikely that a person would go to this much trouble for this badge in producing a fake. The fakes would probably not utilize this complex pin arrangement and would more than likely utilize the cheaper "tinnie like" pin arrangement as that would be much cheaper to produce.
Richard VComment
-
Mike,
I've had several of these pins and still have s/n 40017. I have NEVER seen pin attachment construction like the one in your scans on an HJ badge of any type, or any Third Reich pin that was valid. I also agree with the comments concerning the RZM mark, as there are too many things wrong with it to be good. Another question? Are the numbers raised or stamped? Many of the fakes now days make the mistake of having the numbers be a part of the casting process, rather than stamping them after they are constructed. When the Germans contracted for these pins, they bought them in fairly large numbers. When they were awarded, the party or organizational membership number were stamped in very close to the time of award.
LynComment
-
HJ Badge
Mike-
I looked in Angolia's book on political awards and didn't see this specific item. I have access to another reference which I will take a peek at AND look at other badges which may have a similiar catch and reverse.
Regards-
KevinComment
-
Kevin, a badge exactly like mine (M1/120) with the special pin assembly is pictured in Forman's new 3rd edition guide book on page 289. It also has the exact same RZM mark as mine. Lyn, I believe the serial number on my badge is stamped. I am assuming this as there is some raised metal around each individual number. Here is a closeup of the serial number at least as close as I can get with my camera. I am also posting a clearer photo of the RZM mark. MikeComment
-
Definitely Stamped
Mike-
That picture definitely shows that the number was stamped - you can see that clearly looking at the numbers and just outside the numbers.... would you mind posting a "picture" of that reference you mentioned ? I, for one, would like to see it as I do not own that particular reference work.
Regards-
KevinComment
-
RZM Closeup. Also I should note that the pin is not magnetic. Im not sure if that matters or not but I checked the pins on three other HJ badges that were handy and none of them were magnetic either.MikeComment
-
Kevin, here is the badge in Forman's latest badge book.Comment
-
Thanks
Mike-
Nice reference there ! Definitely worth investigating further... Like I said, I have a few more places to look also, but looking at that reference page sure puts some weight behind it being original. Keep on posting !!
Regards-
Kevin
Comment
Comment