What HJ Badge is this?

[Henri S]

I've seen this before, but I can't remember what it was for. Any idea what exactly this HJ badge was for?

[Henri S]

Reverse.

[collectorhj]

I believe this table medal and the case are most likely fantasy pieces. These things started showing up in pretty substantial numbers in the late 1990's. It is of course possible that these are not fantasy pieces. Maybe there was an original that was copied. I don't know.

A few years ago Manions was selling quite a few examples of this style table medal labeled as reproductions.

Jeff

[Henri S]

Cheers Jeff .

I know I've seen it somewhere, but could find no reference and it was haunting me . I can now rest .

[Duzig]

Hello,
Very interesting. I had never heard before that these items were probably fantasy pieces. I have seen both ones like this and one's with enamelled HJ insignia. Are they all fantasy pieces or what?
Thanks
Duzig

[railhouse]

hj

hm i have this in a book about hj and it is from the 70. fake from the 90 ??????

[railhouse]

hj

sorry wrong from me i find the book and this table medal is not in this book ps but i have seen this table medal with weitze and detlev

[Henri S]

sorry wrong from me i find the book and this table medal is not in this book ps but i have seen this table medal with weitze and detlev

Hmm interesting. Actually I was under the impression that I did see it on one of the sites you mentioned. I did search for it on their sites with no results now.

[railhouse]

hj

hm the problem wiyh this table medals that they are not official they wher manufacture by the local district of hj

[Duzig]

Hello,
I definately have seen these items on respected dealers sites and had never heard anything in regards to their being fantasy pieces that's why I queried jeff regarding this item. I have seen these items on dealers sites and also shown on forums and never heard anything about them being fantasy items. For myself I believe they are good pieces...IMHO,but always open to new information.
Duzig

[collectorhj]

HJ Table Medal, fantasy piece, reproduction or orignal?

Hello Everybody:

I have a couple more things to say about these table medals.

I have seen these table medals on a number of dealer sites. I do not remember seeing them on Weitze’s or Niemann’s sites. But I do not believe it is surprising to find these on a dealer’s site. The ones I have seen vary in quality from reasonably well made pieces to extremely well made and finished pieces. They are often nicely finished. And perhaps most importantly they often come in boxes that fit the uncommon shape of the piece. Some of these pieces to me look either perfect or almost perfect. In addition there is often good detail on the pieces as seen in the HJ diamond. It is clear and the lines are straight and even, just as they would be on an original piece. At the same time many examples of these pieces do bear the tell-tale marks of casting: tiny bubbles/air pockets, slight unevenness of surface on the reverse, polishing marks where it looks to me as though an effort has been made to remove or hide the evidence of casting, and sometimes slight evidence of a seam running around the edge.

The pictures I am posting now are of two of these table medals that I bought from Manions. They are still in the plastic bags, and the date on the bag labels is 04/12/2001. Presumably that is the date of the auction. These were both identified in the descriptions as reproductions. I can’t remember exactly what I paid for them, but I think it was $25 or $28 each. I think Manions still had a printed catalog on 04/12/2001, so if anybody has that catalog, you can check it out yourself. I remember that there were a bunch of these in there.

There is the question as to whether this is a fantasy piece. I don’t know the answer. There could be an original or group of originals somewhere, making some of these reproductions, some originals and none fantasy pieces. Even though I do not know the answer to the question about whether this is a fantasy piece or if there are just some reproductions, I have to say that I would be extremely careful if I were to consider buying one of these now as an original.

If anyone has a pre-1990 reference book or a pre-1990 Manions catalog or something else with this table medal in it, then that would certainly be an indication that there are original table medals of this design.

Now I want to say a little bit about the design of this table medal. I have 38 different HJ table medals in my collection. In addition to that I have pictures of at least three others. And there are a few others that I have seen but don’t have pictures of.

Eagles are a relatively common motif on HJ table medals, as they are present on just under 50% of the table medals I have access to. But the eagles that appear on HJ table medals tend to be of specific, identifiable designs. For example, 6 have the traditional HJ/DJ version of the Prussian Eagle (with a sword in one claw and a hammer in the other as opposed to the original Prussian eagle with a sword in one claw and lightening bolts in the other). 3 of the 40 table medals have the NSKK eagle. One of the 40 table medals has the DJH (German Youth Hostel) Eagle and HJ Diamond, a design often encountered in DJH materials. 2 have the odd-ball looking eagle seen on the AHS trumpet banner on page 277 of Volume 2 of Angolia’s book, The HJ. One has the BDM Eagle. Two of the 40 have the eagle, wreath and HJ diamond used on HJ homes and materials associated with HJ homes. After all of these basically easily identifiable eagles there are three others. Two are different, but I believe were associated with specific sporting events. In one case I am fairly certain and in the other case I am absolutely certain that I have seen the eagle on other medals, papers etc. That leaves one very peculiar thing that looks like a chicken, eagle or some other bird with a crown. It is on a table medal for an HJ motor trip to Harz, and I have always assumed that it is a mascot or something associated with Harz.

After I looking at the HJ table medals to which I have access, I concluded that most eagles used on HJ table medals come from some identifiable source. That may also be true with the eagle on the table medal in question here. But I don’t recognize it. As far as I know it has not been used by the HJ on other medals, documents, buildings etc. On the other hand, if someone recognizes this eagle, I would really like to know what it is. Perhaps this eagle has been used on a tinnie. If this is not an identifiable and recognized eagle design, that does not mean that this is a fantasy piece. At the same time, the use of a non-identifiable eagle on an HJ table medal is to some extent unusual and worthy of some concern and possible further investigation.

I think it is fair to say that this is a widely available table medal at this point. If this is an original and widely available piece, it is surprising, at least to some extent, that none of the following authors mentioned it in their works: J.R. Angolia, David Littlejohn, Philip Baker. All of these authors picture various HJ table medals in their works, and I find it surprising that they would overlook a widely available table medal.

Finally I would recommend that a collector who is considering buying one of these as an original item first consider the particular piece in question carefully. All you can really ask in this area is that the individual collector be satisfied with the particular piece being purchased.

Jeff

[collectorhj]

HJ Table Medal, bubbles

This is an HJ table medal purchased from Manions in 2001 and identified in the description as a reproduction.

This image shows tiny air bubbles on the back of the medal that I believe are sometimes found on cast pieces. The spots that are the tiny bubbles are easily visible in the image, but unfortunately the computer scan does not capture the depth, so the little spots do not really look like bubbles in the image.

[collectorhj]

HJ Table Medals, Quality

These are close up images of two HJ table medals purchased from Manions in 2001 and identified in the description as reproductions.

Here you can see what I think can be described as good detail and careful design on these pieces that were identified as reproductions. To me the detail work seem similar to that found on original pieces.

Jeff

[collectorhj]

HJ Table Medals, Reproductions

This image shows the fronts of two HJ table medals purchased from Manions in 2001 and identified in the description as reproductions.

Jeff

[Ron Weinand]

I have one cased from Graz 1943. I have seen other items in Manion's marked as a reproduction only to find that it was an original Government Official's Dagger that WAS GOOD!!
I wouldn't be too quick to assume these as bad.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria