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    #1

    PL Visor?

    Would appreciate any thoughts on this one!

    Stand a chance based on the available pictures?

    Seems to have some tough structural damage and an attempt at repairing the visor...
    Attached Files
    ------------------------------------------------
    Collector of French ww2-era insignia.
    Tags: None
    #2
    yes, it is a good one, and you are correct, it has been repaired--the visor has been resewn.
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

    Comment

      #3
      Saw it on Facebook..the cap is fine but still not a chance of a life time as I stated on Facebook. I would personally wait for a better one to come up. But that’s my personal opinion.

      Comment

        #4
        Would appreciate any thoughts for the condition it's in
        ------------------------------------------------
        Collector of French ww2-era insignia.

        Comment

          #5
          This cap appears to be basically original; it's an early Orts-level PL cap and it should have an RZM tag under the interior sweat band. I refer you to Jeff Clark's "Uniforms of the NSDAP" on the top of p.119 for a comparable photo. That said, I have a couple of questions regarding this cap as compared with the one in Jeff's reference book:

          In "Uniforms of the NSDAP," the cap cited appears to have a silver-colored woven chin cord, whereas the cap in question clearly has a gold-colored cord. The later version of the PL cap did include a gold-colored cord, and this may be present on this example because the original owner of this cap up-graded it after the 1939 Uniform Code Revision. But it appears that the early PL cap was produced with a silver cord.

          Again comparing this cap with the cited one on p.119 of Jeff's book, the eagle Jeff shows appears to be gold-colored, whereas the eagle on this example is clearly silver-colored.

          I hope Jeff reads these comments and can provide his opinion on these questions.

          As far as this cap's condition is concerned, that question can only be answered by a prospective owner. For me, the condition of this piece is too rough and may present difficulties when it's time to sell it.

          Hoping these thoughts are helpful,

          Br. James

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Br. James View Post
            This cap appears to be basically original; it's an early Orts-level PL cap and it should have an RZM tag under the interior sweat band. I refer you to Jeff Clark's "Uniforms of the NSDAP" on the top of p.119 for a comparable photo. That said, I have a couple of questions regarding this cap as compared with the one in Jeff's reference book:

            In "Uniforms of the NSDAP," the cap cited appears to have a silver-colored woven chin cord, whereas the cap in question clearly has a gold-colored cord. The later version of the PL cap did include a gold-colored cord, and this may be present on this example because the original owner of this cap up-graded it after the 1939 Uniform Code Revision. But it appears that the early PL cap was produced with a silver cord.

            Again comparing this cap with the cited one on p.119 of Jeff's book, the eagle Jeff shows appears to be gold-colored, whereas the eagle on this example is clearly silver-colored.

            I hope Jeff reads these comments and can provide his opinion on these questions.

            As far as this cap's condition is concerned, that question can only be answered by a prospective owner. For me, the condition of this piece is too rough and may present difficulties when it's time to sell it.

            Hoping these thoughts are helpful,

            Br. James
            Thank you very much for your analysis!
            ------------------------------------------------
            Collector of French ww2-era insignia.

            Comment

              #7
              In that condition , not more than a $350 value .

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Br. James View Post
                This cap appears to be basically original; it's an early Orts-level PL cap and it should have an RZM tag under the interior sweat band. I refer you to Jeff Clark's "Uniforms of the NSDAP" on the top of p.119 for a comparable photo. That said, I have a couple of questions regarding this cap as compared with the one in Jeff's reference book:

                In "Uniforms of the NSDAP," the cap cited appears to have a silver-colored woven chin cord, whereas the cap in question clearly has a gold-colored cord. The later version of the PL cap did include a gold-colored cord, and this may be present on this example because the original owner of this cap up-graded it after the 1939 Uniform Code Revision. But it appears that the early PL cap was produced with a silver cord.

                Again comparing this cap with the cited one on p.119 of Jeff's book, the eagle Jeff shows appears to be gold-colored, whereas the eagle on this example is clearly silver-colored.

                I hope Jeff reads these comments and can provide his opinion on these questions.

                As far as this cap's condition is concerned, that question can only be answered by a prospective owner. For me, the condition of this piece is too rough and may present difficulties when it's time to sell it.

                Hoping these thoughts are helpful,

                Br. James
                Br. James, I think if you check the pre-39 Org Books you will find that the most senior levels of the various party divisions of Orts, Kreis, Gau and Reich did feature gold color insignia, buttons, uniforms, buckles and chin. Ords on caps.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JoeW View Post
                  Br. James, I think if you check the pre-39 Org Books you will find that the most senior levels of the various party divisions of Orts, Kreis, Gau and Reich did feature gold color insignia, buttons, uniforms, buckles and chin. Ords on caps.
                  Can we ascertain anything then about the presence of the silver eagle? Lower rank?
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Collector of French ww2-era insignia.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Scott, with a hat in a condition like this, you don’t know what has been restored correctly or incorrectly. As a rule, the insignia should match in color to the rank on these early visors. So, you can see the visor was reapplied, but are the gold buttons original? Does the eagle show signs of replacement?

                    Comment

                      #11
                      "Br. James, I think if you check the pre-39 Org Books you will find that the most senior levels of the various party divisions of Orts, Kreis, Gau and Reich did feature gold color insignia, buttons, uniforms, buckles and chin. Ords on caps."

                      Hi Joe,

                      Thanks very much for your knowledgeable counsel! I'm sorry to say that I only have the 1943 edition of the Org Book at hand to check. As I mentioned, Jeff Clark's "Uniforms of the NSDAP" shows a photo of a similar PL cap to the one here discussed and that photo appears to include a silver-colored cord on p.119. I wonder whether the colors in that photo could be off...?

                      Thanks again, my friend,

                      Br. James

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Silver eagles were in use with leather visors, with gold bullion chincords in the late 20's and early 30's. The silver bird gripping the wreathed harkenkruz were both used by SA/SS and em/nco/officers wore them. Size were small then large. Not certain of exact date the pressed sheet metal bird came in.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Rich Moran View Post
                          Silver eagles were in use with leather visors, with gold bullion chincords in the late 20's and early 30's. The silver bird gripping the wreathed harkenkruz were both used by SA/SS and em/nco/officers wore them. Size were small then large. Not certain of exact date the pressed sheet metal bird came in.
                          Just consult volume 3 of the series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany" (1998) and most is there being explained. This cap form did NOT exist in the later 1920's and not even in the earliest 1930's.
                          This form of cap came into being when Hitler granted the new uniforms for political leaders with the date January 20, 1934.
                          Page 61 of the mentioned book has the scedule from September 1934; page 77 has the about 1936 system.
                          In the mentioned book you can find what eagle had to be used (golden colored eagles were not allowed, for example in early 1936: sämtliche Pol.Leiter tragen das Hoheitszeichen nur in Silber-Ausführung), as well
                          as what color of cords. After spring 1939 all of it was golden colored. By the way, before that date there were no buckles worn, just double-claws.
                          Last edited by wilhelm Saris; 06-19-2019, 05:04 AM.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Thanks for the reminder, Wim -- your series of books provides all of the answers!

                            Br. James

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Br. James View Post
                              Thanks for the reminder, Wim -- your series of books provides all of the answers. Br. James
                              Thanks. Not all anwers are given, but enough to know how it all progressed.

                              Comment

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