SA Bluse

[caillet stephan]

Hello all

Could you give me your opinion on this SA bluse , what gruppe is it ? Insignias legit ?
Thanks in advance for your comments
Steph

[caillet stephan]

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[caillet stephan]

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[caillet stephan]

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[squidney86]

Reiter-standarte 35 was located in Leipzig, Gruppe Sachsen. The insignia is all original wartime pieces. Obviously the tabs are HEAVILY mother. The buttons are all scuffed, pitted, and show general age and wear. The award loops being black are strange as I've only ever seen brown. I look forward to seeing some others weigh in.

Sydney

[Nick E]

Wartime SA shirts are easily put together ...as doesn't require shoulder piping for non officers,shoulderboard color is correct for Reiter..a plus as tab is Reiter(cavalry)..but no,way to tell if it's postwar put together ..you have enough thread on the shoulderboard to do a burn test.Start there.

[Erich B.]

It's usually impossible to be 100% certain whether or not the insignia has been replaced on an SA brownshirt. The insignia was supposed to be tacked to the shirt so that it could be removed when the shirt was laundered. Failure to remove the insignia resulted the tabs and shoulder board being deformed and/or damaged. So, technically the insignia could have been removed and retacked many times. If correct thread is used and the insignia is sewn to the shirt properly, there is no way to know when it was applied.
I have to look it up, but I believe that when the 1939 pattern insignia with 'Waffenfarbe' underlay to the boards was introduced, wearing of the metal crossed lances were no longer regulation nor were they needed, as the underlay indicated 'Reiter SA'. I'm not sure how long a wearing out period would have been allowed, but I would expect that the lances were still worn on existing insignia for a while.
Erich

[Nick E]

It's usually impossible to be 100% certain whether or not the insignia has been replaced on an SA brownshirt. The insignia was supposed to be tacked to the shirt so that it could be removed when the shirt was laundered. Failure to remove the insignia resulted the tabs and shoulder board being deformed and/or damaged. So, technically the insignia could have been removed and retacked many times. If correct thread is used and the insignia is sewn to the shirt properly, there is no way to know when it was applied.
I have to look it up, but I believe that when the 1939 pattern insignia with 'Waffenfarbe' underlay to the boards was introduced, wearing of the metal crossed lances were no longer regulation nor were they needed, as the underlay indicated 'Reiter SA'. I'm not sure how long a wearing out period would have been allowed, but I would expect that the lances were still worn on existing insignia for a while.
Erich

Erich actually the tabs are the earlier chain stitch type..your probably right..early tabs .. Late board.

[rbno]

I agree that if the shirt is rebadged using period thread, it will be essentially impossible to tell for certain. Just a couple of thoughts...

If I were going to hump up a brownshirt, I think I could find tabs in a little better condition to maximize the selling price.

Adding a common printed cotton armband would add pop, again adding to the selling price.

On the other hand, why are the tabs in much worse condition than the board?

Alen

[squidney86]

On the other hand, why are the tabs in much worse condition than the board?

Alen

I've always noticed that moths seem to have a thing for color (no joke intended here).

Sydney

[Erich B.]

That's true--sometimes you'll see an item where only the red or white wool is eaten and the black isn't, for example. Preferences probably depend on whatever sort of insect or larva is living on it, the chemicals originally used to dye the wool, and whatever else to which the fabric was exposed over the years.
When the new SA insignia were introduced per the SAVB (December 1939), the RZM update section indicated that the metal insignia for collar tabs (lances, shovel and pick, lightning bolt) were being removed from the RZM listings. I didn't have time to read the whole update, but obviously the metal attachments were no longer needed.
Lastly, one piece printed armbands were not allowed to be worn with the brownshirt--the only regulation examples were the multi piece or bevo style armbands.
Erich

[Br. James]

"...one-piece printed armbands were not allowed to be worn with the brownshirt--the only regulation examples were the multi-piece or bevo style armbands."

Thanks so much for this footnote, Erich! I hadn't thought about this facet of the development of the 'brownshirt' in terms of historical evolution, but it does make good sense. The reference to this shirt, in English, was the 'Traditions Brownshirt' and it took on that name -- especially "Traditions" -- once it had been succeeded by the Service Tunic uniform in 1933, after which it makes sense to understand that only armbands and etc. which were produced prior to 1933 could be worn on this Traditions Brownshirt. Since printed brassards were not manufactured until later in the 1930s, a "traditional armband" would have been understood to be of the multi-piece or BeVo construction.

I always learn something new on WAF!!

Br. James

[Erich B.]

That could be, however I felt it was because the printed bands were very low cost items that were likely not intended for daily use. I don't know of any NSDAP organization that wore the printed version with a uniform (although I don't know that from regulations but from observation). The multi piece cotton, wool, or bevo types would make a better visual impression and should have lasted longer than the printed versions.
The paragraph in the SAVB didn't offer an explanation but merely stated that the printed bands were not to be worn with the uniform.
Erich

[wilhelm Saris]

Practically none of the regulations mentions how the armband should be made.
Manufacturers catalogues or price-lists do mention the printed version for SA and political leaders quite early (about 1934):
mit eingedrucktem Hakenkreuz (printed) or mit aufgenähtem Hakenkreuz (sewn on) or mit gewebtem Hakenkreuz (woven).
Armbands for leader were noted to have the sewn on swastika.
Also for the HJ the printed version was available.

[Erich B.]

Interesting--perhaps the regulations were changed re printed vs. non-printed armbands, or, since the catalogue is early, perhaps the company produced or sold the printed armbands for the SA in error. It's usually impossible to determine whether an armband in a period photograph is printed or sewn (although occasionally the focus is sharp enough to see the construction details), which makes it difficult to identify specific details of the construction in original photographs.
Erich