collar tabs

[U571]

Hello all,
Can you help me about this pair of tabs?
SA? NSKK? Others?
Many thanks.
U571.

[echoe]

tabs?

Well I think they are attempting to be SA administrative tabs for a Standartenfuhrer from Gruppe Berlin. The whole construction looks pretty shabby tho'.

[wilhelm Saris]

Well I think they are attempting to be SA administrative tabs for a Standartenfuhrer from Gruppe Berlin. The whole construction looks pretty shabby tho'.

Do not know what to think of them. Construction is not the best.
The color for Verwaltung was a much darker-blue, as far as I know!
It was anyway darker in color as the blue for the SA-group of Hochland/
Bayerische Ostmark, but it was not as dark as for the SA-group of
Hansa/Hessen, which was described as navy-blue.

[Erich B.]

I seem to recall that the RZM regulations indicated that the blue artificial silk piping was the same as used by the Ortsgruppen. I think it was in the 1936 Herstellungsvorschrift.
Re the tabs, the bullion embroidery looks too sloppy and appears to be too flat to have an underlay beneath the bullion.
Erich

[wilhelm Saris]

I seem to recall that the RZM regulations indicated that the blue artificial silk piping was the same as used by the Ortsgruppen.

maybe I am wrong, but if so I would like to know where it was stated exactly.

In 1931 they did wear the color for the SA-group with appropriate piping in silver or gold or the two colors;
since May 1933 it was light-blue velvet backing with either the two color piping or a blue one. In 1936 the
color as for the regular SA unit was worn. At the moment I do not have the time to go into depth with it.

[wilhelm Saris]

Global:

The dress-regulation from March 1, 1934 says for Verwaltungsführer:
collar-patches and ranking insignia with the colors as for the regular SA-unit (the special indication was the Gothic "V" behind the patches).
The 1933 form was in use only for a short period of time.


The 1936 RZM manufacturing regulations say on page 137:
Verwaltungsführer as for the regular unit (this is about the color for the collar-patches).
So, tell me where the blue silk in color as for Ortsgruppen is mentioned, please!

You're right about the underlay.

[Erich B.]

I'll see if I can find it later today.
Erich

[U571]

Hello Guys,
no more ideas for this collar tabs???
Many thanks for your help.
U571.

[Mark Costa]

These do not look like SA or NSKK tabs at all. They resemble Stahlhelm tabs instead.

Mark Costa

[Br. James]

While I agree with Mark Costa that these tabs do not look like either SA or NSKK tabs, I thought they might be Stahlhelm in origin, as The Stahlhelm Bund created a whole line of tabs that the NSDAP PL, SA and other NSDAP political organizations picked up on, at least in part. But I've now checked a reference book published in circa 1933 titled: "Die Uniformen und Abzeichen der SA, SS, HJ, des Stahlhelm...etc" and this design of collar tab is not identified as Stahlhelm in that book.

Br. James

[wilhelm Saris]

They are not Stahlhelm, as far as I am able to find in related information. They are not included in the order from the High Command
Bk/IIa 1625/32 (Verfügung Bundesamt).
And as Br. James mentions, they are nog in that booklet. The one oak-leaf was not mentioned. The light-blue color was used for
Intendantur and Kassenwesen, but then the entire patch was in this color and not just an edge.

With the absorption within the SA , being as SAR I (known as the Neugliederung des Stahlhelm), they did wear the same devices
as for the SA or about and so a Standartenführer did wear one oakleaf. Special formations used their old colors for a while. A double
piping was not mentioned. There is not yet a positive conclusion for the shown collar-patch.
An order from August 8, 1933 literally says: Kragenspiegel und Dienstgradabzeichen gemäss SA-Bekleidungsvorschrift. The related
Anzugsordnung mentions: all ranking devices are from metal. The ranks from Standartenführer upwards are allowed to wear the
embroidered form. Nothing is said about a double piping for medical or administration assigned persons, as the device was to be
positioned behind the collar-patch.

[laurens]

The tabs shown here can be in my opnion everything exept SA.
The shape of the oakleaves, but also the blue piping wich nust be attached before the silver piping instead of vice versa.

However, the blue piping was introduced on 20 December 1936 instaed of metal 'V' behind the collar tabs.
This blue piping was abolished in October 1941. From that time Verwaltungsführer wore on the left sleeve a stitched 'V' on brown cloth (white to Haupttruppführer, and silver from Sturmführer)

Erich:
In my information I found nothing about the relation between the color of the Ortsgruppeleitung and the SA-Verwaltungsführer. Have you find anything?

Best,
Laurens

[Tony T-S]

They seem to have had pips at some point.

[echoe]

sa verwaltungs

"I seem to recall that the RZM regulations indicated that the blue artificial silk piping was the same as used by the Ortsgruppen. I think it was in the 1936 Herstellungsvorschrift."

Erich. I do recall seeing a photo of a pair of Verwaltungs tabs with piping similar to that of the PL orts tabs. I also owned a single VW tab from Gruppe Schlesien with a type of basket weave piping from the former collection of a UK collector. I don't believe it was a common type of piping though. I think wim is correct in his statement (although my own reference material is buried somewhere in my apartment.)

t

[wilhelm Saris]

I seem to recall that the RZM regulations indicated that the blue artificial silk piping was the same as used by the Ortsgruppen. I think it was in the 1936 Herstellungsvorschrift. Erich

Can you be specific Erich and Echoe?