PRINTED HJ ARMBAND w/ NSDAP "ORTSGRUPPE" STAMP....

[dastardly]

Milton,
Attached is a picture of what I consider to be an original period, printed HJ armband (from my collection). It is stamped by the appropriate HJ issuance authority. The stamp is partly on the white inner triangle and partly on the red band exactly where it was/is supposed to be citing early NSDAP regulations (the black stamp has even faded over time with exposure to light and is now a more chocolate brown color than pure black). The top and bottom border edges are folded over once, and then folded again within the interior before being machine sewn. This is the correct method because there is no raw cloth edge to allow fraying (your armband was sewn quickly with no inner fold so the raw cloth is fraying).
Your Quote "if exterior stamps are the accepted norm, why would someone trying to dress up a phony armband with a spurious stamp to somehow make it more appealing, do just the opposite, which would raise suspicion". It fooled you (and I'm not trying to be funny/condescending) and because of it you made a case for its authenticity so it worked - that's why. It only caused me to become suspicious because I have seen/handled thousands of German armbands during my 20 years of collecting/researching them and the proper German authorities would stamp these for the reason/purpose of proving to the eyeing public to be officially authorized for wear by the bearer. An interior stamp does not serve that or any other meaningful purpose.
When exposing fantasy, reproduction, or altered original armbands, it is rarely the case that there is just one thing wrong/out-of-place with them. Usually, there exist a combination of errors/questionable issues. I'm sure that a select few original German armbands do exist that were mistakenly stamped in the inside; were for some unknown reason stamped by the wrong authority (maybe it was the only stamp the stamping official could find in his desk drawer that day); were quickly sewn together without protecting the raw edge; and glow under UV (I'm not a believer in any original period armbands with white color on them that glow under UV and I know that washing an armband with detergent will make the white glow under UV, but the glow is very inconsistent/different so an experienced collector can easily tell the difference). But when an armband displays not one, not two, but three, and maybe even four false/questionable signs, then believing it to be original becomes more of a hope philosophy than a determination based on knowledge, comparisons to known original examples, and what official period publications and regulations cite. Your HJ armband being authentic is a far-stretched hope. The second that I saw it in your post I deemed it to be a reproduction instantly, but instead of just saying it is bad (or giving it a picture of a thumb's up or down) as so many respondents do, I have articulated why to try to educate you and the many collectors reading this thread. You can continue to knock/counter my observations/explanations or you can just go out and buy yourself a common, cheap, original, preferably BeVo version HJ armband so that you won't ever have to doubt its originality. I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, Chris

[Milton]

Hi again Chris, and thanks for your continued feedback. Honestly, I never intended this thread to be a case for validation, one way or the other..more of an inquiry as to this particular configuration, as in over four decades of handling militaria, it wasn't a configuration in the HJ dept. that I'd previously encountered. Over the years, I've probably had more HJ armband cross my path than I can count, as have most folks I'd assume who've done this long enough. I do believe, by your own admission, in your earlier post, ("armband itself could still be genuine")...that you thought that the armband itself might well be authentic albeit "tampered with", or? .... the type, and placement of the stamping is seemingly what swayed you. Fair enough, in that what's outside the norm will often sway us. This armband came to me via an estate lot which yielded a few other cloth items, all of which were absolutely period. Not so much an issue as having been "fooled", it basically came along for the ride with the other items. Did it somehow "sneak" into the mix w/ the other period items? entirely possible, however I'm not convinced that it should be utterly dismissed due simply to the placement of the stamp, or the fact that the material wasn't given an extra crimp prior to having been sewn...A variation that could easily be accounted for due to circumstance. The material itself seems pretty consistent with the other printed types I've seen to date. It may well be an old repro of a seldom seen variant, with a fancy NSDAP stamp added as an extra aesthetic tease, or a period piece which due to its configuration, is somewhat out of the "norm" for this type (if a "norm" actually exists). I will simply categorize it as questionable, in its own right, and move on, and as previously mentioned, certainly do appreciate your having taken the time to offer your insight. Happy Holidays as well to you and yours!

[Milton]

...BTW, some neat examples you put up, and the stamps are intriguing...can you make out the verbiage in them? And lastly I want to emphasize, as to all of your previous points, they're absolutely valid, and have certainly swung the pendulum on my example much further into the dubious column... it wouldn't be the first time a post war piece floated to the top of the pond in a larger lot, and each piece has to stand on its own merits. To your earlier point, however, do you see any consistency in the weave of the materials between our printed examples? There doesn't seem to be much out there to compare it to. The material itself does seem to have some legitimate age and imo, shows some similarity to the accepted printed types... Thx again!

[dastardly]

It is just one example that I attached (interior and exterior). The stamp says: Hitler-Jugend Kassel-Bettenhausen (indicating the city and suburb) and has a swastika in the center with rays coming out of it. The interiors of these 2 printed armband examples are very different if you compare them. Again, I suspect that yours glows under UV which should put the final nail into the coffin on your HJ armband being a reproduction for any educated German armband collector, open-minded or not. (as stated previously, an armband so common - millions were produced, that it is not even worth having such a questionable armband in your collection when a 100% original can be found and bought any day of the week).

[Milton]

Thank you for replying. No argument that they're common and easily attainable, have had numerous examples over the years, regardless of the fact that I've never gone particularly out of my way for armbands. As I said, this one just showed up in a larger lot, and the fact that it was printed as opposed to the standard fare multi-piece construction, warranted some additional research for anything "period" in a similar format, (before assuming anything and simply passing it off as just an inexpensive fake). My initial reaction to seeing it was, as I assume, like most, to presume it was a knock-off too, but after encountering other printed examples on line, (deemed to be period examples), my interest became piqued. I personally see some consistency in the material as presented, however that probably means nothing in the overall scheme of things. The material itself however, does, in hand, have a unique feel to it, and again, shows what seems to be legitimate age. So if indeed a reproduction, in my estimation, an older one. I also find the "stamp" itself of interest, (and a bit odd), due, if nothing else, to how crisply its rendered. It does "bleed" through a bit to the exterior, but seems far more uniformly applied than a typical hand-stamp would normally appear, (from my experience). Almost makes one wonder if this wasn't also a part of the printing process when it was churned out, (if a repop), as opposed to a rubber-stamp after the fact, if that's at all possible... As for a black-light test, whenever that happens, that will indeed be additionally enlightening!