Hello folks. Got this in a small lot of various items lately...I know that the consensus is split on the pre 5/45 issuance of these printed HJ armbands...I have no pony in the race one way or the other, but thought I'd toss this one out for some feedback. It's sewn, has some old staining (as if another badge or pin of some type were left pinned through the armband and "bled" rust staining onto the material. Interestingly, there's an "NSDAP / Ortsgruppe" ink stamping to the interior, although I can't quite make out the name of the city / district location....Anyway, be interesting to get some feedback as to whether or not anyone's ever come across anything "period" in this configuration, or if this is just an older embellished w/ stamp, repop. Thanks in advance for any feedback. A few pix to follow...
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...Close-up of the "NSDAP / Ortsgruppe" ink stamp to the interior.... -
Sorry to say, the printed HJ Armband with the NSDAP stamp marking is a fake. I've seen several of these same HJ printed armbands in the New England area back 30 years ago, with this exact rubber stamp markings and their own rust stains.... I believe they may be "Kelley's" specials from back then. Incidently, that stamp was also common to find back in the early 70s.... faked, of course.
Not too big of a disappointment, I hope.
Good collecting.
John G.Comment
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Hello John, thanks for your feedback. Could well be, however, in the interim, doing some additional on line research, here as well as other venues, I’ve come across other printed examples (some also w/ inner lining), in this configuration, which were deemed as period examples, so I’m still on the fence, and am hoping for some additional feedback from others w/ specific experience in handling these printed types...As for the NSDAP stamp, do you recall the Ortsgruppe location that was being faked at the time? That’d be interesting. Thanks again for commenting.Comment
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Jo Rivet provided photos of a pre war catalog that included examples of printed armbands. Printed armbands were made. Collector lore is that they are late war, but Jo has shown with period documentation the opposite is true. As for the example shown, the stamp appears dubious to me. It makes no sense to have a non HJ related stamping on an H.J. armband.Comment
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Hi Darin. Yes, that’s some of the research I was referring to, in addition to other photo references I’ve found. As for the stamp, who really knows? Could’ve perhaps related to a specific district where these were being used, (sort of akin to similar stamps I’ve seen on Deutsche Wehrmacht armbands, for example). If in fact a repro, in my honest opinion, it’d make more sense to utilize a stamp that wouldn’t seem out of place, (HJ related, for example), unless included for nothing other than aesthetic appeal...(but then, why on the inside?)...But again, I’m only speculating. Thank you for commenting!Comment
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The name of the Ortsgruppe one could read "Badgastein" (??)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Gastein
GerdanComment
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Hi Gerdan! Gut geraten, koennte wohl sein...Sieht so aus, auf jeden fall, doch etwas verschwommen....Danke! If indeed "BadGastein", very interesting, as I'm assuming that's a rather unambiguous locale, or??Last edited by Milton; 12-17-2017, 02:15 PM.Comment
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IMO, printed HJ armbands were made during that period and so did exist (see attached photo of an uncut sheet of printed HJ armbands). This particular HJ armband, though, demonstrates too many signs of being messed with (armband itself could still be genuine). Those signs are - A. the stamp not being HJ-related (would the SS put a stamp on a WHW armband or would the stamp come from the WHW?). B. I am always very skeptical of any stamps placed on the inside of an armband (the stamps should always be on the outside front so that they could be seen. This would show anyone looking at the armband wearer that he/she was issued the armband by a higher authority within that organization making it official. Especially on local Hilfspolizei, Landwacht, Stadtwacht, etc. armbands, this was important as it helped prevent anyone from slapping on an armband and then pretending to be someone he/she is not. I always ask myself this question - What good does it do placing an official authority stamp on the inside of an armband that is then sewn onto a shirt/jacket/coat/tunic since it is completely hidden? C. yes, there are some crude, locally produced/homemade armbands (especially when in a time/resource constrained environment) where the border edges are just folded over and sewn together like on the armband depicted, but most official armbands have the border edges folded over prior to being sewn so that the end product is clean and to prevent fraying.
On fantasy, reproduction, or altered armbands, there is usually more than just one sign that they are not period authentic. As described above, the armband depicted in this thread shows multiple signs of not being an original so I personally would not have it in my collection. I hope this helped, ChrisComment
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Hello Chris, thanks for your thoughts. As regards the placement of the stamp, I would say it's akin to a simple "issuance" stamp, much like what you might see stamped on the interior of a piece of headgear, or other item issued from a particular depot, or point of control, and not necessarily something that was to be utilized as some form of identification or verification, not to mention, that many, if not most armbands were probably not actually sewn to the uniform sleeve per se. The stamp, imo, is a rather generic NSDAP / Ortsgruppe stamp, apparently from Bad Gastein....is it not possible that this simply was its point of issuance, and nothing more? Either way, as I've seen several different types of supposedly "period" printed types, both lined, and unlined, I still remain on the fence about this one, as I haven't as yet really been able to verify it either way based on its construction or configuration (other than the obvious assumption that some folks simply don't like the printed examples). As for now, I'm going to remain open-minded about this one. Appreciate your comments!Comment
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I don't buy the "Issuance Stamp" theory at all. I have only ever seen the round German official authority stamps used on paperwork such as award documents, Wehrpässe, etc. and armbands. I have never seen them used for anything else, especially not in the interior (or exterior) on any German headgear nor any other German uniform item. Maker's tags, markings, stitching, yes, but never the round German official authority stamp. Also, as stated previously, the authority stamp on this armband does not match the organization the armband depicts. The stamp depicted would match on an NSDAP armband, but not on an HJ armband.
Armbands were made to show affiliation, or official membership in an organization, rank within an organization, specific duty/position, and participation in a specific event. Only a very few exist with buckles, straps, or buttons. Most were made with the intent to be sewn directly onto a shirt/jacket/coat/tunic so to make a statement that most were "probably" not actually sewn to a uniform is puzzling to me. Maybe you mean because more armbands were produced than were actually issued/worn so they never made it onto a uniform? I have encountered countless armbands with thread residue from being sewn onto something yet only a very few with a rusty safety pin indicating that they were pinned on.
100% original, HJ armbands are so common, easily found, and relatively cheap that for me, it would just not be worth it having an armband in my collection that is so questionable with not one, not two, but three signs that it is not a 100% legitimate item (stamp authority, stamp location, and armband construction are all wrong IMO). You can remain open-mined about it, but hoping/believing that it is authentic will not make it authentic and no posts in this thread to date have argued for or given explanations as to why they believe it to be authentic. Good luck with it, ChrisComment
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Hello Chris. Quite an argument you’ve made, but in a nutshell, in all my years of handling militaria, I’ve come across more than a few armbands w/ stamps, most, if not all, straight from vet groups back in the day. In fact, one comes to mind just now....a simple red / white / black “party” armband w/ ink DAF stamp...hmmmm). Regardless, in the same vein as your argument, why would a faker also go the extra mile to overly embellish something so common and inexpensive? (additionally, as far as I know the HJ WAS in fact, an organization that I imagine, would fall under the overall auspices of the NSDAP, or)? As for construction, it’s already been argued (and presumably proven), that printed armbands DID in fact, exist, (as stated earlier in this thread). How mine in your estimation so vastly differs from the other printed examples, escapes me, (maybe I’m missing something?), but no worries. As for “most” armbands being permanently attached, I’ve had ‘em both w/ remnant threads, and without, not to mention, most would’ve probably been removed prior to uniform jackets being laundered back in the day, I’d assume. Regardless, I believe it’s an interesting item which I’m happy to continue remaining open minded about...It’s certainly not a make or break issue for me in any sense of the word. Thank you again for your add’l feedback!Last edited by Milton; 12-19-2017, 08:46 PM.Comment
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Milton,
Of course many German armbands came with stamps. My point was/is that for me to believe their authenticity, the stamp better be from the matching/appropriate authority and it better be stamped on the front where it is openly visible. The stamp served no purpose being in the inside and as stated previously, official authority stamps were not used as "issuance stamps" to mark the interior of any German clothing or equipment. The stamps proved to onlookers that the person bearing the armband was issued it officially by the organization that the armband represented (many times, the bearer/owner was obligated to return the armband to that issuing authority upon completion of his/her affiliation, service, or specific duty assignment). One can say that every organization in all of Germany fell under the auspices of the NSDAP, but the chain-of-command was delegated down to the lowest authority possible and every organization within the NSDAP had their own uniforms, armbands, stationary, organizational authority stamps etc. (would the Pentagon put its official authority stamp on an MP armband of a Soldier stationed at Ft. Carson, Colorado or would the stamp indicate that it was issued by the Provost Marshall at Ft. Carson?).
Sadly, I own quite a few, original armbands (many as common as a plain red cross armband) where someone put an official authority stamp onto it that has nothing to do with the organization represented by the armband just to make it seem even more authentic to other collectors and potential buyers (adding Waffen SS stamps is the most popular practice with the assumption that it will fetch the best price of all).
Yes, IMO opinion printed HJ armbands did exist, but yours differs in its construction when it comes to the stitching along the border. Who ever sewed the armband together used the quick/sloppy way of doing it by not folding the sides over to prevent fraying so yours is already fraying everywhere. That in itself is not a 100% indicator of this not being authentic (for me it would be enough because an official, factory-produced armband such as this HJ example would have been cut from its roll and sewn properly with the edges folded using machinery. Some locally-produced armbands, many times done in haste and by a personal sewing machine, did not bother to fold the edges prior to sewing so examples do exist).
Finally, it is not just one sign, but the combination of 3 signs that makes this armband highly suspect/doubtful as to its originality. I have not even asked, but does the white on this armband glow under UV? My bet is it glows and that would make 4 bad signs if so. I'm glad for you that you don't have much invested in it. ChrisComment
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Hi again Chris. As for construction, mine is actually folded over and machine sewn...the fraying you're seeing is coming off of the upper edge of the material, above the line of stitching. The ends are double-sewn, as you can see, and the material has that "cross-hatch" type of weave. As for the seemingly odd interior stamp placement, I've never been a fan of the "never did that" scenario...lots of variations from the norm exist when applications were hand rendered. Granted, most stamped armbands I've come across have also been stamped to the exterior, but again, it begs the question, if that's the "accepted" norm, why would someone trying to dress up a phony armband w/ a spurious stamp to somehow make it more appealing, do just the opposite, which would raise suspicion. Lets face it, regardless of research to the contrary, lots of collectors probably STILL don't like the printed examples in the first place, so the very fact that it IS printed is already one strike against it for many collectors. In the end, since I wasn't actually there, I guess I'll never know for sure, and no, I've not endeavored to black-light it, (which I should certainly endeavor to do), but even THAT isn't a sure fire guarantee of originality either, as we're all well aware. Period piece or not, it's been interesting to discuss. I'll upload a few more detailed pix of the interior for your perusal, and I do appreciate your attention to this thread so far!Comment
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...couple more...Comment
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