Blood Order

[jack1]

Silver Blood Order under the scope.

https://www.parteiabzeichen.ch/index.php/home

[Jon Fish]

Need a log in so this thread is not great?

[der-hase-fee]

So Jo Rivett has exposed all of Jon's BOs as fakes now ?

[Jon Fish]

Ha ha, no not at all, it's an interesting video with nice photography, unfortunately as joe does not know the differences between the first type and also the changes within the second type range, there are some verbal errors. I'm not criticising Joes work, he is the 1st to say he is not familiar with the medal. A useful comparison with a copy medal.

[Erich B.]

While the video provided high quality images of the surface of an original and a fake BO, much of the commentary is inappropriate and would appear to be unnecessary. A cleaned up, edited, and objectively narrated version would be very useful.
I've removed the yt link.
Erich

[Bob Hritz]

I used to be a member, of that forun, but apparently my membership was stricken.

Bob Hritz

[jimmy72]

For those not offended by " naughty " language , Jo shares these videos through his YouTube Micro Macro channel. Very informative and as mentioned , some great micro shots of many badges .

[der-hase-fee]

Those not offended by "naughty" language ...

... can now toss him their change: https://www.paypal.me/micromacro

[Br. James]

I would submit that the presence of off-color language illustrates to some people that members of this hobby are not serious about research and study of our chosen subjects. If you sat down with a lawyer or a doctor or a college professor and that person began to use that level of language, how long would you sit there and listen to it? How long would you regard that supposedly-learned and serious scholar the respect that he/she should command? And if you found that people are trained in and regularly use that sort of language, what then would you think?

Perhaps use of such language has become a hallmark of our hobby that most of us would think regrettable? It's so unnecessary and it adds NOTHING to the subject or to the conversation!

Br. James

[jimmy72]

What is " regrettable " is that guys like Br James float around and add useless comments to threads but never really have an definitive answer to anything . Parroting old authors and gun show hearsay but never quite in the know . Putting thousands of dollars into buying known fakes , thousands into microscopic equipment and the thousands of hours researching the badges presented somehow can't measure up to the scholarly requirement of the flaccid few. Here's a challenge to the " supposedly learned " wise old owls that roost here .. answer the thread directly below . Eric Broome wants to know if the three badges he is looking at buying are fake . New collector .. old hats ... give the kid an answer . Side note ... Bob Hritz .. never a member of the parteiabzeichen.ch site .

[squidney86]

What is " regrettable " is that guys like Br James float around and add useless comments to threads but never really have an definitive answer to anything . Parroting old authors and gun show hearsay but never quite in the know . Putting thousands of dollars into buying known fakes , thousands into microscopic equipment and the thousands of hours researching the badges presented somehow can't measure up to the scholarly requirement of the flaccid few. Here's a challenge to the " supposedly learned " wise old owls that roost here .. answer the thread directly below . Eric Broome wants to know if the three badges he is looking at buying are fake . New collector .. old hats ... give the kid an answer . Side note ... Bob Hritz .. never a member of the parteiabzeichen.ch site .

I think you should do some more research before you complain and accuse members of not contributing in conversations. While youre at it, what useful information did you relay in the nonsense above?

[jabnus]

Hi,

I have been hestitant to get involved in this discussion as for a second i was afraid it was going the wrong way, but thank god the topic is still open en we can discuss further. As the Blood Order in question is mine i might as well tell a bit about the background.

Without getting into other WAF topics or dragging other discussions into this one, we all know Jo. For a book im working on myself i needed evidence, micro-evidence that is, and although i tried playing with microscopes i was not satisfied with the result and thus contacted Jo and asked if he could help me out. I realise WAF is an international forum and it's perhaps not as easy for some of our American friends to visit us, but within Europe its just a matter of making an appointment, get into your car and drive to where and/or whom you need to go.

Its no secret (and i say this with the utmost respect for everyones opinion) that recently microresearch has been the subject of a few heated discussions. Of course every new research tool that becomes available, needs a time of getting used to, and obviously when items are exposed as fakes that will cause unfortunately some people to be disappointed.

Whatever one might think of microresearch, it has a place in our hobby and is becoming more important with each new attempt to research. Im very glad that in this very topic the people involved have not questioned the validity of the tool and i completely agree with Erich B. that "the video provided high quality images of the surface of an original and a fake BO". This was exactly the aim of researching it.

Regarding the video itself: i took a few items with me and am of the opinion that if you are convinced of what you own and your own research, you have nothing to fear. Of the ten items i brought with me, i expected on forehand two to be fake, but it turned that actually three were reproductions! A very scary discovery, and also one that showed me the power of microresearch again. The video itself then, i gave Jo my word he could use all micro images and video's to his future liking and video's. I suppose his humor is not for everyone, but that counts for more people too.

@Br. James: hi my friend, you know i value your opinion and think you are a great person. I often agree with what you say and think you're a true gentleman. I just read your response above here. Unfortunately the world is not the same as it was several decades ago, im probably only half your age and i already experience this all too often. I applaud your good manners, but this hobby of ours is unfortunatly in big troubles and often the people who talk the nicest (of have English as their motherlanguage and can make the best grammatical replies) are the biggest crooks. I dont want to go namecalling here, but we both know of several expellend members that were really nice. On the other hand some people who talk bad anglish, some even who curse too much or have a dark sort of humor, bring much of real evidence to the table. I stopped caring for that a long time ago. Its the message, the evidence and the real information thats being brought to the table thats important, i honestly dont care who or however that is being presented. On a side note, i have quite some experience with lawyers and law suits, trust me when i say that sweet talking or gentlemen conversations are often the worse too.

If i may permit a personal remark after all: i've been a member of WAF for over a decade, always came here with great interest and joy, made some great friends too, some even in real life. What i want to say is, and i type this without naming names or aiming at someone in particular: we all know that for the past years new forums were made by and for people who came to the conclusion that WAF was not the right place anymore for certain discussion. I think this is not a good development. Real information, no matter what or who brings it, should always be considered and allowed. Its a pity that we can't enjoy these images of my Blood Order here. And i dont say this because it is mine, but simply because the information in the youtubelink is totally new to most Blood Order collectors. e.g the way Joseph Fuess made the die, the characteristics, the dots within the arches, the letters, the numbering, the edge, just to name the tip of the Iceberg. I know Jo has much more video's that show characteristics that no faker ever will be able to reproduce. Wouldn't it be great if we could point new collectors in the future to these characteristics?

Also as said i brought a few other medals with me, these will open the eyes of collectors who own these items too. I truly hope more people will dare to step forward and start looking at the items we all like so much with an open eye, dare to do micro research on their collectibles. This should all not be about names, ego's or even what one thinks about a certain medal, it is about the items themselves and as the movie of my humble Blood order showed: even after all these years, talking so much about BO, a "simple" microvideo now in 2017 tells us so many new things.

Good luck and happy collecting my friends, i think we all want the same in the end: good collectibles to feel comfortable with in our collections.

Best regards,
Gaston

[JoeW]

I too have been reluctant to enter this discussion. I agree with Brother James, but I found that video was audibly palatable if I hit the mute button. But all I observed was Rivett assessing the legitimacy of a fake BO. I observed no original. Where did I miss Gaston's original BO?

Gaston, you are certainly lucky to be able to travel all over Europe with such ease, as that means you can avail yourself of Rivett's services. But you must tell us whether when you met him, did he greet you and shake hands with those queer rubber hands? Does he have a skin disease of something embarrassing about his hands? Quite odd. I find it disconcerting to see that in his video and consider odd that a person is afraid to show his hands to his viewers.

I didn't quite understand your comments to Brother James about things changing over the decades. I have been a WAF participant for a bit longer than you and have always sought to be reasonable in my posts and avoid the personal invective I hear when I view those YT videos without mute. Were you referring to the change in speech over the decades or the corrupt influences in our hobby. I can say the latter has been around since I started in the early 70s. But I will always disagree with the use of "naughty" language or personal invective, for I was always taught that such discourse was the measure of the low level of the user's intelligence. "Gutter talk".

I think micro-imaging is a fascinating tool. Did Rivett provide you with forensic measurements of your two BOs? The weights and dimensions? I didn't see any visual indication in that video and of course it was muted to I didn't hear if he mentioned it. Are you saying that collectors are deserting WAF because of they sense antagonism to the use of the tool? Or the prophet? I for one have indicated that it has value with certain collectibles.

[jabnus]

Hi JoeW,

Thanks for your reply, i agree with you on some points and im sure we understand eachother on others too

I think micro-imaging is a fascinating tool. Did Rivett provide you with forensic measurements of your two BOs? The weights and dimensions? I didn't see any visual indication in that video and of course it was muted to I didn't hear if he mentioned it. Are you saying that collectors are deserting WAF because of they sense antagonism to the use of the tool? Or the prophet? I for one have indicated that it has value with certain collectibles.

Im not responsible for any of the "sound", but do think that any seasoned collector like you (and me?) can make out great things from this video. I like your joking about the two fake Bo's and asking of measurements and weight, gladly we both know better ;-) Obviously those last two are not gotten by a scope, but you know that of course and i suppose you're trying to joke. In all seriousness, im more than happy to assist anyone and provide those if needed too.

You might also have read my first post wrong or perhaps too fast, i wanted help with two items but those were something completely different. I brought the BO and a few others things just to play with, to see if any new insights could be gotten from putting them under a microscope, and yes, for sure that happened. The result you watched in the video. Whether or not seen with audio, it should be clear what one looks at. Whatever one might think, im sure that every BO collector will be happy to see these clear and sharp close up images, that show many new details that have never before (for as far as i know) been showed on WAF.

Im glad you too see the benefit of this tool, it can be really helpfull and indeed a valuable researchtool regarding many collectibles. Personally i have not much of a clue about cloth, uniforms, emblems and such, no idea if it works there too (although we did look at the ribbons of a few medals in real close up), but on metal and even paper items it's of a great help and will in a few years no doubt be the norm.

I spoke in general about people leaving WAF, as you say you are even around longer than me (although i lurked a few years before getting a membership here), im sure you too have seen many things and people leaving. My remark about e.g gentlemanbehavior was with regards of certain expelled members, im sure you know of Ailsby, Gottlieb, others... people who were well mannered, able to speak with two words but were banned after all because of what they did to others. Its all on the forum for who wishes to check the stories. What im trying to say to Br.James was: sometimes its better to look at what one says instead of how one says it. I learned a long time ago that the proverb "wolves in sheepclothes" also counts in the collectingworld.

Regarding people leaving WAF, since you ask and are a long time collector too: im sure you have seen many of e.g the cultural discussions and the nonsense spread by a certain invidual who still continues to do so with several forumacounts here, everyone knows it, yet he can continue. Discussions about such items take place elsewhere now. I think thats a shame as WAF became my "home" and i somehow miss those days. Dito the HJ researchforum, at times i wish that WAF would be more like that. They have a complete WIKI on their site, with all proven researched facts. It helps a lot in distinguishing fakes and/or backgrounds of items. In former years people would come here first, but now they are going to specialised forums. I honestly miss those times on WAF and truly hope they will come back one day, with collectors just discussing collectables and honseslty trying to learn from eachother.T he polical sections here are in great need of research, look at many of the old reference books, they contain so many fakes. I remember Ailsby's Satellite states book for example, when i open it now i can just pint out: fake, fake, fake...

Im not sure what you mean with the following and suppose it is not directed at me too:

Gaston, you are certainly lucky to be able to travel all over Europe with such ease, as that means you can avail yourself of Rivett's services. But you must tell us whether when you met him, did he greet you and shake hands with those queer rubber hands? Does he have a skin disease of something embarrassing about his hands? Quite odd. I find it disconcerting to see that in his video and consider odd that a person is afraid to show his hands to his viewers

Yes im lucky to be able to meet a lot of collectors in Europe, although i would love to meet some WAF friends on the SOS or Max shows next year too. Perhaps we can get a cup of coffee then, it would be nice to put a face to your nickname, we participated in many of the same topics over the years and i think we often think the same too. Regarding the rest of what you wrote, it might be my bad english understanding, but this is a bit strange? Im not here to defend Jo, i just love Blood Orders and am excited by the new presetned facts. Jo can probably perfectly talk for himself i suppose, if one agrees with what and how he speaks is up to them. Im gratefull that he wanted to help me when i contacted him two weeks ago and he was a real gentlemen during the day when we met, with great hospitality too. I suppose you and i both saw and heard of the gloves, its appearantly a bit of a recurring thing in his video's, just like the red Phone from Hitler, it is his kind of humor to present serious facts. I have never been involved in any of those video's, everyone is free to see or think of that what they want i suppose. But the content, regarding the items researched, is however great and groundbreaking, personally i do like good research. And like watching video's too. This was just not possible 20 years or so ago. Also on Youtube are of lot of video's by e.g Wittman doing his rounds on fairs, it's perhaps a whole other kind of video's and in know these get mixed responses too, but i think it's a good thing that more new technologies (not talking about microscopes now) like e.g Youtube and such, are dealing with our hobby.

Im not sure if i remember you owning a Blood Order, but did you ever noticed in such detail the die creation by Fuess? The way the arches were shaped and created by hand with handtooling? It blew me away and will for sure be helpfull for many new future questions by many collectors, in determining originality. Just compare it to the fake BO at the end of the video, its a world of difference. This is the kind of information people will come to WAF for, it's just never been done before.

Anyway, we drifted a bit into other discussions, and i suppose thats a good thing too. However and back ontopic: i wonder if more BO owners would be willing to inspect theirs this way? Mine falls obviously in quite a high or even late number range being number #3545, small die differences exist in the total numbering from 1 to 4100. As a collector i would love to see those presented. Maybe one day more die characteristics of other BO's from others number ranges can be presented too. Im just happy to have been able to contribute a bit on more WAF knowledge regarding these medals.


Best regards,
Gaston

[Jon Fish]

It was an interesting video, not anything I've not observed using my loop though. I guess it's useful if you haven't specialised in an area to get a quick 101 tutorial, especially these days everyone wants all the knowledge in a few minutes that traditionally takes a lot of time to build up.
In terms of other things touched on here, I for one think it's healthy to have a mix of old hands, young bucks, and even punks! In the hobby. Just wish we could all get along a bit more and respect each other's opinions and approaches.
I'm pretty happy with my medals without the requirement to micro analyse them, the knowledge comes in handy when at a show and having to make split decisions 😂. Each to their own👍
And I'm only just in my 40s , don't mean to say I'm stuck in my ways or not open to new approaches, just prefer to maintain relationships to our elders and our young bucks, however they choose to enjoy the hobby.