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**sjl** · 04-17-2017, 04:47 PM

RZM license numbers were issued in blocks, and so you can't assume they are issued in chronological sequence.

Again, I'm not sure what the point of raising the M1/70 cancellation is. My point is that even if it was cancelled at the end of 1935, the HJ badge in gold was authorized and issued earlier and from a calendar perspective could have been made by Franz Otto before he was cancelled or withdrew from the RZM, assuming they are real.

**Gary Symonds** · 04-17-2017, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by sjl View Post

RZM license numbers were issued in blocks, and so you can't assume they are issued in chronological sequence.

Again, I'm not sure what the point of raising the M1/70 cancellation is. My point is that even if it was cancelled at the end of 1935, the HJ badge in gold was authorized and issued earlier and from a calendar perspective could have been made by Franz Otto before he was cancelled or withdrew from the RZM, assuming they are real.

Stephen, I never raised this issue, only Rivett did so, to try to prove M1/70 as a fake, with this irrelevant mumbo jumbo, regarding M1 licences, where his own book proves he was wrong.

In his book he places M1/159 as being a maker in Vienna, or the Sudentanland. Just based on that alone, we can establish M1/159 as being licensed in 1938, and no earlier. Therefore, it stands to reason that the concluding number M1/184, had to be in the late 30s.
But either way, if M1/70's license had been cancelled, Franz Otto would not have made the cut.

**Jo Rivett** · 04-18-2017, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by nigel2003 View Post

so could the gold hj m1/70 badge be original but ...

Hi Nigel2003

Post 6 will clarify. Can`t promise exactly when, but will shift it to the top of the To Do list. Will also try and make it my Masterpiece

Life is not easy at the minute for me, and there are other priorities, but fret not, post 6 will happen, that is as sure as an Amen at Church! A promise.
It will of course happen on the HJ Research forum, but the videos will be public.

**War Prisoner** · 04-18-2017, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by sjl View Post

The HJ gold honor badge was introduced in 1934 and the M1 RZM licensing codes started in early 1935, so it is quite possible for Franz Otto to have pumped out a few marked badges in the interim before he was cancelled in October.

The badge may or may not be a fake, but it's not because an M1/70 mark rules it out.

So that we can learn.. how is it then that one with no markings at all is a "big no-no"? What would be the makers marks on a 1934 badge be like?

**jabnus** · 04-18-2017, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

I want to set the record straight.

Per Rivettt and Jabnus, both claim I post pictures of items, and when I am told these items are fake I attack that person;" we have seen him post some right minging filth -and proceed to jump at anyone who dares argue with him."

Blablabla more nonsense

Great to log in after Easter again and read this, better than a comedy on tv. That is, if this weren't so sad. Gary, this might work in a courtroom were scum layers defend the biggest criminals and try to get lower scentences by a technicality, but you are not in you're daily workspace Gary Symonds. This is WAF and you keep presenting yourself as the crook who wants to keep fakes real. Why Gary? What is YOUR agenda really? Got too much "invested" in fakes? Afraid your self proclaimed expertname with an "extensive library" gets burned too much? Guess what, you're the WAF clown now. Whatever is presented as evidence to you, you will not ever ever ever accept a fake as fake. Instead you even demand more evidence

this is not an incident, there have been so much more topics already.

Whatever your reasons are, you will keep defending fakes, each and every fake in YOUR collection of fakes, sometimes even opening up new topics (like the SA badge) in an attempt to fool the WAF community and that all with a tone of "im only asking evidence". Im starting to think you are not really a lawyer and made that up too. No one can be this dumb or make a fool of himself on purpose.

How many WAF topics on different fakes you want me to quote under here that show you refuse to accept that all those badges you own are fakes? The fake raised Hoffstätter SS pins, the fake SA tinnie, the Treuewerkabzeichen der Betriebsgemeinschaften der Luftfahrt, the Teno badges, the ... et cetera. And you keep asking for "evidence", you're a troll GAry, the biggest on WAF at the moment. All you do is harm other collectors with your posts on purpose to fool other collectors. No one cares you bought all these fakes and threw your money away (propbably beside you yourself, hence you keep defending the fakes?), but it's a very bad thing to purposely try to legitimate fakes and thus harm other unsuspecting (young) unaware collectors. You tried this with the fake SA badge, i called you out because of that. I dont care about you, you brought this over yourself, but i do care about other collectors who work hard for their money. Does this make me a yes-men? You're pathethic, the many pm's i get from other collectors prove me right.

By the way, for a lawyer you should get your facts right istead of posting on purpose m

ore lies. I can imagine in court you would be kicked out by a Judge if you tried the same and ignore evidence. You refuse to believe in micro research, you choose to ignore the fact that in this very same thread the presented fake "4" on the teno badges is the same. You are alone in this. Wait, those Teno you probably claim are real too (im too tired to check your old topics at the moment). There are people who ignore the fact that dinosaurs existed more than 5000 years ago, because they believe in what they "believe" no matter what evidence is presented to them. There is no reasoning with them, just as there is with you.

What pisses me off is that you purposely try to discredit evidence and the people who bring real factual information to the table. As a so called "lawyer" you should know that tampering with evidence on purpose is criminal. Bad bad bad....

I hope this topic gets found in the future by many (young) collectors who read up first before buying these badges or actually any fakes that you defend and shout are real...!

And before you start whinig i insult you, i didnt, and i really don't want to, i only stated what you posted many times yourself before.

**jabnus** · 04-18-2017, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by War Prisoner View Post

So that we can learn.. how is it then that one with no markings at all is a "big no-no"? What would be the makers marks on a 1934 badge be like?

You are a new member, which is always a bit strange to see if someone starts posting suddenly in a heated discussion., but to answer your question: may i suggest buying a microscope, even a cheapish one. Play around with it a bit. Try to understand and learn what to look for. Also: if certain people (be it in favor or against) make rposts here, research the item yourself if you have it. Put a certain item under your scope and see if for example die characteristics match (or not). You will discover a whole new world. It's also great fun to play with your collectibles and learn from them.

As to maker marks: i have no idea how experienced you are, but may i suggest reading up on eg. RZM codes, also regarding certain badges try to understand and find out known makers. There's a great deal of info on WAF and other places online. Never buy anything without researching the item first on forehand!

**Jo Rivett** · 04-18-2017, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by War Prisoner View Post

So that we can learn..

Hi, the Hitler Youth Research Forum is the best place to "research" (and learn about...) all aspects of the Hitler Youth, if one was genuinly interested.
Apart from a few irellevant pinned threads, there is nothing on the Political/Tinnie sub-fourms here on WAF that could help anyone seeking relevant, up to date info about anything at all- pertaining to the Hitlerjugend. (as well as many other things)

It`s focus is on factual information, correctly archiving posts and subjects for further continuation/research/debate, and not on reputations, post counts or egos.

**Gary Symonds** · 04-18-2017, 04:56 PM

Jabnus, as usual you are off topic.

The topc in this thread is not about me, it is about the HJ Honor Badges marked M1/70.

Your Master has told the membership these are fakes. To prove this, your Boss has posted pictures of such a badge I sent to him in Switzerland, in 2014.

For some strange reason, Jo took a year and a half to "discover" that these particular badges were fake.

In post 27, Jo was kind enough to show clear closeup photos of my M1/70 Honor Badge.

Since you are an expert in this area, please be the first member to explain in factual detail why it is a fake. Please try to think for yourself and not parrot your Boss, Rivett.

You are now the expert witness Jabnus, please explain to the WAF jury why the badge is bad. Bad size? Bad enameling? Bad numbers? Bad swastika? What?

The courtroom is yours Herr Jabnus.

We await your expert testimony.

**TWALT** · 04-18-2017, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

Since you are an expert in this area, please be the first member to explain in factual detail why it is a fake. Please try to think for yourself and not parrot your Boss, Rivett.

You are now the expert witness Jabnus, please explain to the WAF jury why the badge is bad. Bad size? Bad enameling? Bad numbers? Bad swastika? What?

The courtroom is yours Herr Jabnus.

We await your expert testimony.

Why does Gary always demand that others show proof of certain badges being fake when in my mind he should be proving why, in his mind, they are real.

"You cannot accept the fact that I demand evidence, that a badge is fake, not just an opinion, but evidence."

And yet, this is exactly the way you normally go about stating the authenticity of items yourself, talk about double standards

**Gary Symonds** · 04-18-2017, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by TWALT View Post

Why does Gary always demand that others show proof of certain badges being fake when in my mind he should be proving why, in his mind, they are real.

"You cannot accept the fact that I demand evidence, that a badge is fake, not just an opinion, but evidence."

And yet, this is exactly the way you normally go about stating the authenticity of items yourself, talk about double standards

I say my badge is an original. Period workmanship, period materials, period assembly. Everything matches other known originals. Again, I would remind you that all I have done is question Rivett's opinions that some badges are fake. I have not posted my own badges and claimed they are original. I know that is hard to remember, but try to get your facts correct.

I have made my case Mr. Twalt, the courtroom is now yours, please if you can, explain to the WAF membership how the badge in post 27 is a fake. See if you and Jabnus can come up with some evidence. Something other than an opinion.

I say it is real.

The burden then shifts to you Mr. Twalt to show how I am wrong.

Please do so.

**jabnus** · 04-18-2017, 06:06 PM

Gary, no matter what evidence is presented to you, you keep playing dumb.

I say my badge is an original. Period workmanship, period materials, period assembly. Everything matches other known originals

This is really your favorite answer is it? You gave it in other topics too, eg. recently in the raised SA badge topic in which you made a fool of yourself. Funny, as everything you type here goes for most fake's.

For someone who is as factual and has such an extensive library as yourself, please explain why the found "4" should be an indication of originality? Please proof as is asked of you above here why the badge should be original? Those who know me know i like good entertainment, go on?

Please proof why it is Original. Someone as smart as yourself, the big lawyer, must acknowledge that period materials, workmanship and assembly are non arguments that every faker can use. Please give us some other FACTS instead of "i own an extensive library" (you don't and i doubt you can read german, but thats another matter)?

You shot yourself in the foot Gary, you know it and instead of being a man and admit you made many mistakes buying all those purchases you now sink deeper and deeper in your own created misery. Please post and make it worse...or at least let us laugh.

**Gary Symonds** · 04-18-2017, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by jabnus View Post

Gary, no matter what evidence is presented to you, you keep playing dumb.

This is really your favorite answer is it? You gave it in other topics too, eg. recently in the raised SA badge topic in which you made a fool of yourself. Funny, as everything you type here goes for most fake's.

For someone who is as factual and has such an extensive library as yourself, please explain why the found "4" should be an indication of originality? Please proof as is asked of you above here why the badge should be original? Those who know me know i like good entertainment, go on?

Please proof why it is Original. Someone as smart as yourself, the big lawyer, must acknowledge that period materials, workmanship and assembly are non arguments that every faker can use. Please give us some other FACTS instead of "i own an extensive library" (you don't and i doubt you can read german, but thats another matter)?

You shot yourself in the foot Gary, you know it and instead of being a man and admit you made many mistakes buying all those purchases you now sink deeper and deeper in your own created misery. Please post and make it worse...or at least let us laugh.

Still off topic Jabnus.

I have no idea what you are talking about in the "found 4," not a clue, are we talkng about S&L PKZ maker #4? You got me mixed up with somebody else. But I guess I should not bother you with the facts. After all, you don't care about evidence.

Please tell us why my HJ badge is a reproduction?

Are you not embarassed by your inabiltiy to articulate why my HJ badge is a reproduction?

**War Prisoner** · 04-18-2017, 07:49 PM

So in the case of these 2 badges there are only opinions it would appear, looking at an item through a microscope would be a good way for me to form an informed opinion, but still just an opinion, I don't see how studying RZM marks will help determine what a pre RZM badge will look like.

There must exist genuine badges from the range 8000 - 9999, that is a fact so if one can be presented from a maker other than M1/70 that duplicates a number that would be proof

I searched... Wim Vangossum has a badge 9341 marked RZM 15 so no M1 pre-fix at that point and Mr. Rivett provides a link to another badge just one digit lower at 9340 containing full RZM M1/70 markings, the difference in quality is marked, and common sense would suggest given Wim's 9341 badge that these RZM M1/70's are fakes.

**Jo Rivett** · 04-19-2017, 10:10 AM

light years ahead

Originally posted by War Prisoner View Post

Wim Vangossum has a badge 9341 marked RZM 15 so no M1 pre-fix at that point

I remember that badge well, it was only the other day i was looking at that and thinking what a lovely badge. At the same time i was looking at a badge stamped in the 8000 range - made by Deschler & Sohn. That was on the 2009-started "Who wore my HJ Honor Badge?" thread. An ongoing thread for specific research into the numbers on HJ Ehrenzeichen.

**TWALT** · 04-19-2017, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post

I say my badge is an original.
I say it is real.

The burden then shifts to you Mr. Twalt to show how I am wrong.

Please do so.

And I rest my case, onus is still on you to prove authenticity.

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