2 Hitler Youth HJ Gold Honor Badges for Review

[jabnus]

Symonds fake

Please can we keep this name? Please? Even better, can someone put this in print? From now on if we talk about fakes, just call them "Symonds fakes"? This should/could be applied to all kinds of fakes that he willfully keeps defending?

We have an expression for those people over here, if im not mistaken it translates in English as: "When you sleep with the devil there is Always hell to pay"

[Gary Symonds]

Please can we keep this name? Please? Even better, can someone put this in print? From now on if we talk about fakes, just call them "Symonds fakes"? This should/could be applied to all kinds of fakes that he willfully keeps defending?

We have an expression for those people over here, if im not mistaken it translates in English as: "When you sleep with the devil there is Always hell to pay"

Jabnus, I know that English is your second language, and I have to assume you have problems understanding my posts.

Nowhere am I defending fake badges, I am merely seeking evidence to support that conclusion.

Why does that pose such a problem for you?

Savvy?

[Jo Rivett]

From now on if we talk about fakes, just call them "Symonds fakes"...

Only problem would be where to start and where to end, because over the years we have seen him post some right minging filth -and proceed to jump at anyone who dares argue with him. I seem to remember a horrible Luft brooch a while ago, that he went bananas on when told it was bad. Not that normal eyes would not have reached the same conclusion.
Personally, just flush him and be done with it Gaston, everything else is a waste of your time.
If i start adding his surname to fakes, it would mean a rehash of old WAF memories for me, having to read his name over and over. Horrible days of having microscopic research labled "pretend science", wasted time spent hosting images, copying and pasting links - only be shot down mid-air by the pepto bismol & whisky induced ramblings of a deranged bürogummi.

[Jo Rivett]

Been withdrawn already from the upcoming auction:

https://www.ratisbons.com/17th-Conte...old-M1-70.html

[Gary Symonds]

Only problem would be where to start and where to end, because over the years we have seen him post some right minging filth -and proceed to jump at anyone who dares argue with him. I seem to remember a horrible Luft brooch a while ago, that he went bananas on when told it was bad. Not that normal eyes would not have reached the same conclusion.
Personally, just flush him and be done with it Gaston, everything else is a waste of your time.
If i start adding his surname to fakes, it would mean a rehash of old WAF memories for me, having to read his name over and over. Horrible days of having microscopic research labled "pretend science", wasted time spent hosting images, copying and pasting links - only be shot down mid-air by the pepto bismol & whisky induced ramblings of a deranged bürogummi.

We are still waiting for the name of the M1/70 faker, big shot.

"Rehash of old memories." Such as demanding evidence for your BS conclusions?

All talk. Mr. Rivett, all talk, all mumbo jumbo, all "prancing around the fire."

I don't even collect Luft stuff, let alone a "brooch." I guess this is another effect of micro-patina on your brain.

"Microscopic research,"! Give me a break, that is really a laugh.

You must have mixed me up with your lackey Yes men.

You just promised to ignore me. Please at least keep that promise.

Another Rivett promise gone South.

[Gary Symonds]

I want to set the record straight.

Per Rivettt and Jabnus, both claim I post pictures of items, and when I am told these items are fake I attack that person;" we have seen him post some right minging filth -and proceed to jump at anyone who dares argue with him."

This is simply not supported by the evidence, and never happened. What I did was send Rivett in December 2014, 10 different enamel badges for his opinion, including the HJ M1/70 badge in post 27 of this thread. All of the badges that Rivett trashes were never posted on the WAF, period. His claims of my posting of a Luft brooch is pure fiction. Never happened.

However, I will give the devil his due, and thank Jo for posting such clear and closeup pictures of HJ #9214, M1/70. His photo and computer skills are far better than mine.

I invite the membership to tear apart #9214. Please post your factual objections about this badge as to why its fake, absent Rivett's opinion, that it is a fake.

For those with the proper computer skills, please circle, please arrow, please point out what is wrong with this badge. Is it the reverse hardware? Is it the RZM marking? Is it the number fonts? Is it the enameling? Is it the Swastika?

Here it is guys. As I said, I never posted this badge on the WAF. But now it is there, clear, closeup and in your face. Please show me what is wrong with it.

Whatever it is, it could not have bothered Jo, or he did not realize it was a fake, because during the entire calendar year of 2015, and most of 2016, Jo never said a word. I wonder why?

Show me fellow members what's wrong with it, other than Uncle Jo says it is a fake.

[Jo Rivett]

The new thread now has 45 linked M1/70 badges/numbers
And, a few historical nuts for the genuinly interested...call it a factual banana even... Franz Otto had his RZM M1/ license - M1/70 - withdrawn by the RZM on the 15th October 1935.

[nigel2003]

The new thread now has 45 linked M1/70 badges/numbers
And, a few historical nuts for the genuinly interested...call it a factual banana even... Franz Otto had his RZM M1/ license - M1/70 - withdrawn by the RZM on the 15th October 1935.

so could the gold hj m1/70 badge be original but never issued only to be numbered post war or is it as jo says that the badge is a post war fake.

[Gary Symonds]

I expected the membership to trash the HJ M1/70 badge in post 27. Afterall per Rivett and his yes man, Jabnus, it is an obvious fake, which should be easily exposed.

Since there are no problems noted by the membership, and as Deitrich said, "a perfect fake would be an original," I have to assume that as usual, Rivett has only his opinion and nothing more to support his claim that the M1/70s are reproductions.

Therefore, guys, you can see Rivett's intellectual bankruptcy for yourself.

His attempt to show that M1/70 lost its RZM license is disproven by the fact that this company is still listed as a producer in the late 30's.

[bmsmear]

Wim too?!

Is Wim Vangossum also mentally bankrupt? He also said both badges were fakes.

[sjl]

The HJ gold honor badge was introduced in 1934 and the M1 RZM licensing codes started in early 1935, so it is quite possible for Franz Otto to have pumped out a few marked badges in the interim before he was cancelled in October.

The badge may or may not be a fake, but it's not because an M1/70 mark rules it out.

[Gary Symonds]

Is Wim Vangossum also mentally bankrupt? He also said both badges were fakes.

Well, have Wim prove to the membership all of the faults with the HJ badge posted in #27. Have him expressly point out all of the fake points of this badge. Should be very easy if it is a fake. Right?

I am more than happy to see what these alleged problems are, so far no takers.

How about you, Mr. bmsmear?

Can you show us and enumerate the problems with my M1/70, HJ badge?

Should be easy, a slam dunk.

I'm waiting.

[Gary Symonds]

The HJ gold honor badge was introduced in 1934 and the M1 RZM licensing codes started in early 1935, so it is quite possible for Franz Otto to have pumped out a few marked badges in the interim before he was cancelled in May.

The badge may or may not be a fake, but it's not because an M1/70 mark rules it out.

Stephen, if he was "cancelled" why is he still listed as a maker in the late 30s?

[sjl]

Where do you see it still listed? I'm asking because I can't find a primary source reference. It must be somewhere in the voluminous Mitteilungsblatt which recorded licenses, suspensions, cancellations, fines and penalties. I suppose there could have been a reinstatement, but it would be in the source materials somewhere. RZM license numbers were generally not reassigned to new makers.

All I was saying is that * if * Franz Otto made some of the first run of badges and was assigned a production run of 2000 badges between the numbers of 8000 and 9999, he could have easily made them before his RZM license was cancelled in October.

[Gary Symonds]

Where do you see it still listed? I'm asking because I can't find a primary source reference. It must be somewhere in the voluminous Mitteilungsblatt which recorded licenses, suspensions, cancellations, fines and penalties. I suppose there could have been a reinstatement, but it would be in the source materials somewhere. RZM license numbers were generally not reassigned to new makers.

All I was saying is that * if * Franz Otto made some of the first run of badges and was assigned a production run of 2000 badges between the numbers of 8000 and 9999, he could have easily made them before his RZM license was cancelled in October.

Stephen, I posted a separate thread on the M1/70, explaining its history with the RZM, and showing that M1/70s license had not been cancelled, and for some strange reason, it has been deleted.

My reasoning is based on the fact that all of the reference books show that the highest M1 number was 184. Based on Jo's book The Party Badge Book which I have always praised, Rivett provides a time line for Party Badge production, which shows that M1/184, based on such a high number, would have been granted a license in the late 30s. Franz Otto, aka M1/70 is still listed as a maker.

As I pointed out in the deleted thread that I posted, that Rivett showed that a Studentbund badge M1/33 with full markings was a fake. And sure enough, all of the M1 references show M1/32, and then skip and delete M1/33, and go to M1/34. This is fairly pursuasive evidence that if M1/70 had really been cancelled, the list at the end of the 30s should have deleted Franz Otto from the licensees.

You wrote the books on RZM, please correct me if I am wrong.