SA Dagger with decal. Thoughts?

[Andy A]

SA Dagger with decal. Thoughts?

I bought this today. It is a generic original SA dagger. What's interesting is the SA decal on the scabbard. It looks like it has been there a long time. Could this have been done in the Third Reich era? Any thoughts. Thanks.

Andy

[Bob Hritz]

It looks like a repro decal and is on the wrong side of the scabbard. You have the knife in the scabbard the wrong way.

Bob Hritz

[Andy A]

Thanks Bob. Would there ever have been decals used in this manner?

Andy

[Br. James]

I agree with Bob. And though the photos are not clear, it looks like the dagger's lower crossguard is mounted backwards.

Someone has been playing with this piece of history!

Br. James

[squidney86]

I believe this style decal would have been used on a SA helmet on the right side. The gladiator style like you see with the Luftschutz helmets.

Sydney

[Br. James]

I have no opinion on whether or not this decal is period or more recently made, but I can't imagine any SA member showing up in uniform with such a decal mounted on his Standard Service Dagger. It would have been considered 'well beyond uniform regulations!'

Br. James

[Jean-Claude]

No idea if the decal is original or not but its not an normal attribute of the SA dagger. Even if period applied, the wearer wouldnt have been in much trouble for his "customizartion" with a vertical hanger because the decal is on the back of the scrabbard and wouldnt be visible. The dagger is inserted backwards in the pictures; the hanger ring should be at top for the dagger to "hang" properly, see attached pict).

Either way (period applied or post war applied) I think the point is the scrabbard finish risks being damaged if you try to remove the decal if its been there for a while. It doesnt look like a late dagger (chrome plated steel fittings with RZM # only) but not sure if its an early one (solid nickle fittings maker mark but no RZM) or a mid period one (nickel plated brass fittings
with maker mark & RZM) but whatever it is it would be unfortunate to mess it up if it otherwise original

Regards

JC

[squidney86]

Yes, the decal is clearly against in regulatiom the SA would have had in place. With that said though, SA members are seen quite often in photos and other period refrences of having some very strange uniforms and insignia configurations that are clearly against what would be considered "allowed". Never say never when it comes to obscurities with SA no matter how far-fetched. I will say that I do not think this is something that would have been done my a member though.

Sydney

[Tony T-S]

If it is a more modern decal the interesting question may well be what is it hiding underneath. I'm interested in Br James' comment about the lower guard. Does it look as if the knife has been disassembled at some point?

[Andy A]

I'll look and see if the dagger has been apart. The decal does look old. My first thought was to try and figure out the best way to take it off. Then I thought, maybe I should post it first. I was hoping to hear that this is the only known example of the long lost SA sticker variety dagger. But, no such luck. I remember the story about a local museum that thought they were power washing away mud on a WW2 German vehicle and then realized it was a anti-magnetic compound to keep contact mines from sticking. All said, I'll probably leave well enough alone, especially since it will be on the back of the scabbard anyway.

Thanks for everyone's help. Always appreciated.

Andy

[Br. James]

Hi Tony T-S:

"I'm interested in Br James' comment about the lower guard. Does it look as if the knife has been disassembled at some point?"

My comment was in reference to the close-up in note #1. The photo is not clear enough to make out whether there is a lightly-stamped SA-Gruppe code in the middle of the lower crossguard, but there seems to be something there... If it's an SA Group code then that would mean that that crossguard has been removed and replaced backwards.

Cheers,

Br. James

[Br. James]

Good points from JC and Sydney; I hadn't noticed that the dagger was inserted backwards in the scabbard! And as Sydney said, over the years that the groups of the NSDAP were photographed, or even individuals, there was a wide variance between what was "correct" according to the regs in place at a given time and what the photos show as being worn. I think the 'tolerance' shown to various members, including those in the ranks of the Political Leaders, had to do with the understanding that the possibility of replacing an article -- be it for a uniform or a piece of hardware -- had more to do with availability than with willingness to comply!

Br. James

[sgstandard]

SA Dagger

1. The dagger IS early, from SA Gruppe "Mitte".
2. Good catch - the "Mi" abbr. should be on the reverse.
3. If that dagger WAS ever worn by an SA man, the decal would be at least SOMEWHAT worn from rubbing against the clothing.....but looks brand new.
4. SS helmet decals were applied using lacquer to apply decal, and then, the decal was lacquered over on the top. This appears to be a water decal, and I would remove it by carefully picking at the edges with your fingernails. If a little flakes off, the rest should be easy.
This is entirely up to you - just saying what I would do.
PS: Look at the overall condition of dagger, and then compare to decal, which looks new. Nice dagger....but would always be questioned with such embellishment. DOES look like SA helmet decal, but smaller, and just as with SS decals, as I've read, original period decals often disintegrate if you try applying them.

[Andy A]

Thanks for everyone's help. Always appreciated.

Andy

[Br. James]

You've got great eyesight, sgstandard -- even under magnification on the screen I couldn't see the crossguard well enough to recognize the "Mi" die-stamp...or any other stamp, for that matter! But it did look like there was something there, and if there was...and is...then that meant that the lower crossguard was mounted to the piece backwards, and in such situations, that means that someone has taken the dagger apart in the past. In my experience, there was never any reason for the original owner of any NSDAP dagger to take it down during the TR period, which only leaves a post-war owner of the piece as the "guilty party!"

Br. James