E-Stand Drum For Review

[Shawn Southern]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=819895&highlight=drum

The heads on this drum appear to be modern - i.e. plastic/mylar, not calfskin as would have been used contemporary with the HJ. If, in fact, the heads are plastic/mylar, this should be so noted for any potential buyer as the statement "completely untouched" then begs the question, "Untouched since 'when.'

The maker, Lefima, continues to do business today. To be clear, 'm not claiming the body/additional components are not contemporary to the pre-1945 period. But, will note that production of the Landsknecht/Ruhrtrommeln has continued unabated since 1945 and, in fact, these rope-tensioned drums continue to be produced currently and are little changed from before 1945.

I have not completed a detailed evaluation of the historical changed to their Lefima" trademarks (I do know that very early drums (likely pre-WWII) drums from this maker were marked as "Leberecht Fischer" with a brass plate). The maker, however (links below) may be able to provide information on the age of the particular drum so as to otherwise confirm, or refute, the represented period of manufacture.

And perhaps other members may have information on the period of use for the "Lefima" mark shown or otherwise can verify in some other way that the e-stand drum was, in fact, produced prior to 1945.

http://www.lefima.de/en/historic

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefima

Best regards,

Shawn

[Garry M.]

Hi Shawn,

I share your concerns. We discussed the Lefima mark on this drum over on the HJ forum: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f38...html#post70313

[Shawn Southern]

Drum

Thanks for adding this information Garry. I just logged into the HJ forum and reviewed the thread, with its additional information on Lefima marks.

Maker marks generally change at least slightly over the years. Such was the certainly the case with another large German drum maker still in existence today: (oringially) Johannes Link, Weissenfels ("Sonor" trademark) and slight changes in the form of the mark "Sonor" were made over the period from the 1930's to today.

Perhaps the user will post additional photos but - beyond the mark on the drum - it still appears to me that the heads are plastic and tucked onto metal hoops. If so, it's certain that those do not date to pre-1945 and most definitely affect the value of the drum and such should be so noted. Calfskin or goatskin head can be obtained to replace natural skin heads on most drums - retucked onto original wood flesh hoops - if those remain. However, retucking a head onto the hoop is beyond the abilities of almost all militaria collectors. Where modern synthetic heads on metal hoops are present (as they generally are purchased), restoration to original period condition would require finding the correctly sized wooden flesh hoop or having one made. Obviously, all of those materials/tasks cost money and impact the value of an original drum body.

Bottom line on all this is that - if the heads are plastic and original to the drum body - the period that the drum was made cannot have been pre-1945.

I don't think any of this indicts the sellers as someone attempting to knowingly deceive or misrepresent the item. Collecting musical instruments is very much a specialty and I know from experience that it can be extremely difficult or impossible to date some instruments with precision. And, I can easily understand that such historical differences in drum hoops/head materials might escape a militaria seller/collector who may know little about the instrument.

I'm not sure if the content can be transferred from the HJ post to this one; doing so might be helpful for WAF members who are not registered with that forum?

Additionally, I might suggest that the seller post a detail image of the hoop - again, it looks like a metal hoop to my eyes.

Thanks for contributing to the thread Garry.

Best Regards,

Shawn

[Garry M.]

Hi Shawn,

Funnily enough, we were also discussing the Sonor trademark recently: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f40...m-sonor-10343/

Yes, I don't suspect the seller of deliberately misleading anyone either. As you say, this drum currently has parts that were not on originals but the clincher for me is that post-1961/2 Lefima TM on the body that is noted on the HJ forum thread to which I linked (please feel free to copy that over Shawn).

[Shawn Southern]

Ruhrtrommel

Hi Shawn,

Funnily enough, we were also discussing the Sonor trademark recently: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f40...m-sonor-10343/

Yes, I don't suspect the seller of deliberately misleading anyone either. As you say, this drum currently has parts that were not on originals but the clincher for me is that post-1961/2 Lefima TM on the body.

Please feel free to copy the info on the Lefima TM from the HJ forum thread Shawn.

If there are HJ collectors who haven't found us yet you are very welcome to come over, create a free account and join in.

Garry:

Agree! I reread the HJ forum post...had missed this (cut and pasted from that post):

The page goes on to say that a new logo came into being in 1961/2 after Lefima had fled the DDR and that this logo is still in use today ("Das heutige Lefima-Logo entstand"). Logically then, the logo on the drum up for sale can't be earlier than 1961/2. Clearly, the wiki info is not footnoted but it is a strong indication and if we can confirm it through old catalogues etc then this will be all that is needed to sink any notion that drums with this type of logo are from the HJ period.


If, in fact, accurate, I do think it sinks the entire drum. I will post a photo of the brass plate that Ernst Leberecht Fischer used on early snare drums, I believe well after adopting the "Lefima" trademark, if on-line information regarding the origins of such use are accurate. That is not to say that one should expect to find this same plate a rope-tensioned drum such as the one under discussion, but just to add to the thread for interested forum members.

Additionally, from part of your post on the HJ forum:


Wiki shows a Lefima logo which it says dates to approx 1930. The attachment name is "Lefima_logo_1930_1948":




Best Regards,

Shawn

[Shawn Southern]

E. Leberecht Fischer drum plate

And, this maker's plate attached to a snare drum in the colors of Saxony - either Imperial period or - at the latest - a Reichswehr period/early 3rd Reich drum as used prior to the red/white/black "diamond" paint scheme orders being issued.

[Shawn Southern]

Fischer

and the drum

[Garry M.]

Hi Shawn,

I knocked up a quick chronology of the Lefima logo which I think shows beyond any doubt that the drum cannot be from the HJ period. I can't upload the pic here but the pic is at the bottom of THIS post.

I have set the pic to be clickable by all members so you are welcome to copy it and post it to this WAF thread.

[Jo Rivett]

Not this again.... seller, if you really believe your own description, then why try first on your site, then on WRF estand, and now a few months later here.. all for only £700? If "peter" does want it, and does want to sell it for 1500.- then why the fuss here to get "shot" of it for only 700?
Fish...... i smell them......and as far as a Textbook HJ drum goes.. well just depends on who wrote your textbook i guess..Pfui Teufel

Peter from the site is very interested in obtaining this piece with the view of selling this rarer 'textbook' red and white HJ version for $1500 +

[Shawn Southern]

Thanks Garry. Here's a link and the photo from a current eBay.de auction of a Lefima drumhead (modern). Appears to be the same trademark as that on the drum under discussion.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/131578497854?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageNa me=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT