kreis tunic

[ColonelDietrich]

hi, i already posted this in the show your political uniforms thread but i did have a few questions about it, and help would be great as im new to political items, my first question is what do you guys think the award loops on the pocket could be? the top set both i and stephen (who runs the geocities golden party badge website) believe its for a golden party badge but i dont know much on political awards and cant say for sure and i personally think the bottom set is for a war merit cross first class but its all speculation, and what kind of awards would be on a ribbon bar as long as this one would of had?also on the rank insignia it was sold under the words kreisamtsleiter so im willing to bet that it but the collar tabs look like they have a hint of gold on them and might have been gold at one point and time took it off (or its weird gold tarnish?) but the buttons are also gold which i thought on pre 1939 tunics meant leader and silver meant not but again im not positive, any help would be great thanks!

[Br. James]

Shouldn't this tunic have had at least one shoulder board?

Br. James

[Jeff Clark]

only very early tunics with the 1st pattern rank insignia had shoulder boards, this is 2nd pattern

[sgstandard]

Tunic

Both the chocolate-brown velvet and white piping DO indicate Kreisleitung level. But tabs don't conform to reguations. They certainly appear to be original, but I'm guessing an overlap in regulations when the 4th and final pattern PL tabs were introduced.
3rd pattern (1936-1938): Kreis Level: Rust-brown tabs, Black piping. Amtsleiter: 2 silver bars.
4th pattern (1939-1945): Kreis Level: chocolate-brown, White piping.
However, the rank of "Amtsleiter" no longer exists. Also, the use of 2 silver bars did not exist.
Bottom line: I can only guess that this configuration was a transitional pattern.
You basically have elements of both the 3rd-pattern and the 4th-pattern combined. Simply put - 2 silver bars were never on chocolate-colored tabs or with white piping - 4th-pattern chocolate-brown and white piping tabs were worn with the metal eagle device (according to regulations.)
NOTE: In reference to Mr. Clark's response, who has probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about PL - I can't find any reference to either chocolate-brown tabs OR white piping in the 2nd-pattern regs. in Angolia's book, which was my reference. Only light-brown, and rust-brown.

[Jeff Clark]

These 2nd pattern tabs, have been upgraded per a ROL order that allowed for the Kreis PL to upgrade their tabs and uniforms to the white piping. I have the order somewhere, but can't find it.
This occurred in 1939, when the 3rd and final pattern rank and insignia was introduced. It is very common in period photos to see Kreis officials (and all other PL) wearing their 2nd pattern insignia until wars end.
Angolia calls out 4 patterns of PL rank changes, but his 2nd and 3rd really only pertain to party court tab additions/changes, as I recall.
IMO, there were only 3 changes of rank/insignia:
1st pattern 1933-34
2nd pattern 1934-39
3rd pattern 1939-45

[ColonelDietrich]

very interesting discussion on the insignia, i hate to ressurect old threads but i found a picture while browsing the internet which i found highly pertanent to the discussion of the color and insignia upgrades, i have included this picture with this post, i also wanted to ask what awards do you guys think it had? i would love to say gpb and war merit cross first class but i dont want to say its def gpb because it has some loops, also would the buttons on this guy say its a kreisleiter instead of an amstleiter? or does gold buttons for leaders only apply to pre 1939 headgear and not tunics?

[LuftMike]

Thats a great shot of a Kreisleiter! 2nd pattern tabs with last pattern visor insignia....AND the cap wreath is even Bullion Wire!

[TxGauleiter]

great picture!

I wish it wasn't watermarked..
that hat is beautiful!!

[Jeff Clark]

great color photo