A Decoration of the High Command of the H.J.; For Foreigners for review

[patrice]

Sorry for the bad pics but the badge belongs to a friend and he has asked me to find out if this badge could be authentic or not.

Thanks for your feedback.

Pat

[patrice]

Last

[Erich B.]

I believe only those with brown enameling are considered to be original.
Erich

[patrice]

Thanks for the info, it would have been so easy to simply make the enamel brown.

[TPK]

I have just seen a set of these in brown, green and red I believe and all are marked and constructed identically to the one you posted, not sure about the marking but read some where only unmarked is correct. I would like to learn more about these too. TPK

[Gary Symonds]

Collector Lore as to the maker marked Herman Aurich badges in any color, is that they are reproductions.

I cannot agree. The HA marked badges are consistent with period quality and equal to the umarked badges.

The Herman Aurich trademark is believable and consistent with other badges produced by this Dresden manufacturer.

I have always requested some supporting evidence, not merely a conclusionary opinion, to prove the HA's as fakes.

I'm still waiting.

[jabnus]

Only the brown ones are considered original, but we don't know which ones as period evidence has not surfaced yet and period photographic evidence is not sharp enough to determine makers or molds.

I cannot agree. The HA marked badges are consistent with period quality and equal to the umarked badges.

The Herman Aurich trademark is believable and consistent with other badges produced by this Dresden manufacturer.

I don't agree with this. The coloured ones in the very same setup as shown here have been proven to come from the 1970's and are pure phantasy. Im not even going to try to point out to "the other" forum, but they have been investigated and proven to be wrong and also why. Saying that the HA mark is consistent with other badges is not proving anythig at all im afraid.

Anyone who has been following these badges for the past years knows there is a lot going on that is not right with these (i mean the brown ones). In my opinion one of the most dangerous badges to buy or collect as no one knows how an original looks.

Just run away if one comes along and spent your cash on anything but these!

[Gary Symonds]

Only the brown ones are considered original, but we don't know which ones as period evidence has not surfaced yet and period photographic evidence is not sharp enough to determine makers or molds.




I don't agree with this. The coloured ones in the very same setup as shown here have been proven to come from the 1970's and are pure phantasy. Im not even going to try to point out to "the other" forum, but they have been investigated and proven to be wrong and also why. Saying that the HA mark is consistent with other badges is not proving anythig at all im afraid.

Anyone who has been following these badges for the past years knows there is a lot going on that is not right with these (i mean the brown ones). In my opinion one of the most dangerous badges to buy or collect as no one knows how an original looks.

Just run away if one comes along and spent your cash on anything but these!

Jabnus, Please, where is the evidence these were made in the 70s?

This is a claim of fact. I'm waiting for the proof, which of course you have not a shread to offer. Right?

If as you say, "as no one knows how an original looks." how can you claim the badge depicted is a fake, if you have no idea what an original looks like?

Do you even own one of these badges? Original or not? Probably not.

Am I missing something?

[rlimike]

Here is a link over to the HJ website and a long thread on these.

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f28...slaender-6798/

[Jo Rivett]

Only the brown ones are considered original, but we don't know which ones .........

Gaston, as you`ll know, until not so long ago, it was accepted by most that the unmarked brown badges were genuine, and the HA marked brown badges were bad.

You will even have read this "battle of the maker marks" on dealers sites, for example:

Weitzes site - They claims this, only the unmarked brown is good.
Phillip Militaria site - They claimed the opposite and had a HA marked brown badge for sale as genuine.

The "sets" of Red, Brown and Green, one sold by Gottlieb not so long back as a Repro, fetched only $185.- FOR THREE BADGES ON A CARD. The same set of fakes fetched €1900.- on a recent Thies Auktion

We have been following the "hoard" of unmarked brown badges that have been "harvested" during the past 12-16 months, Ground dug, either sold on public auction sites, or constantly found on dealers sites - like eMedals, and it boils down to roughly a BADGE A MONTH, that we have see so far.



So we take what knowledgeable collectors have told us, Wim Saris for example, who was collecting "HJ" during the years when these multicolored fakes came out, has commented a few times about these on the HJ research forum, and that he was warned in the early 70`s to "stay away from these"

And we take what we have, and are still, discovering on the thread dedicated to these on the HJ Research forum, and we know already that something stinks to high heaven with the HA marked badges, AS WELL AS, the unmarked brown badges.

Proven, factual evidence, is there, this badge did exist, and was "awarded" , in-wear photos are known, period documentation exists. It`s not a fantasy badge.

To just rely on one source though, and what "they heard at a show in the 70`s" would not really be correct, and not a "point at all really", EXCEPT....

We need to differentiate between "authors" who have offered up nothing but copied and pasted works, with no research of their own, (Ailsby, Angolia etc..) and an "author", or "dedicated researcher like Wim Saris, and the books and research that he has "offered". It is still no "proof" of course, but it carries certainly more weight, a lot more weight.

Add into the mix, that no tests have yet been done on an unmarked brown badge.... A red HA marked badge was tested a few years ago, and of course was found to be fake.

So "todays stand", is that there is, a genuine brown badge, but we are not 100% sure what the differences are between the genuine unmarked badges, and the hoard of fake unmarked, ground dug - planted - badges that are surfacing.

We have spent quite a while following these on the HJ research forum, and will continue to. If and when new information of these becomes available, i`ll add it here, but cant add any more as the threads about this elsewhere are huge, with many images and comments, and it would be unfair to take that all off a registered site and just "whack" it up here for everyone to see. (I would get fired as a MOD there, and i don`t want that)

[Jo Rivett]

I must also add, that it is in the best interests of those who OWN, a brown, unmarked badge, to take this research further if they wish to "claim" "shout" or "demand" that theirs is genuine, and the other "planted" badges are not.
We at the HJ research forum are just following what we find, and reporting the findings, none of us have a financial stake in these at all.

We also don`t have any twisted agenda, or any ill feelings for certain dealers, we just tell it, "as it is", show it, "as it is."

The longer no "tests" are done, the more the "market value" for these, exceptionally rare badges, will plummet. The longer that dealers list them for 500, 800 dollars a pop, the more the "real value" of a genuine will drop.

[jabnus]

Jabnus, Please, where is the evidence these were made in the 70s?

This is a claim of fact. I'm waiting for the proof, which of course you have not a shread to offer. Right?

If as you say, "as no one knows how an original looks." how can you claim the badge depicted is a fake, if you have no idea what an original looks like?

Do you even own one of these badges? Original or not? Probably not.

Am I missing something?

Hi Gary,

Yes i think you are missing a lot, but from your recent posts in multiple recent topics you don't seem to care about any research or facts and rather make your own conclusions that you post, no matter if they are correct.

Posts like this should not be made:

I cannot agree. The HA marked badges are consistent with period quality and equal to the umarked badges.

The Herman Aurich trademark is believable and consistent with other badges produced by this Dresden manufacturer.

How can you type this? You basically decribe every fake ever as original?



Two further observations:

-1 You purposely try and twist my words. I said that only brown ones are original, but that we don't know which ones. This means the others coloured like posted at the beginning of this topic are the fake ones. I typed this because i know of the research that went in the coloured ones and that Jo mentions above here. I did not type more regarding this as i saw your replies in the past topics about other enameled badges and it seems you don't care about anything but your own OPINION and either ignore evidence or make such a mess of topics that they are ruined. The coloured ones have been researched and are proven to be bad. Everyone who is seriously interested in these is aware of that.

-2 Im getting quite annoyed by your arrogant tone in recent topics, as well as here again.

You tried the same arrogant approach in the Treuewerk badge topic belittling me and others because you thought only you had ever handled a gold badge. To your surprise i posted two more you weren't aware of. The same you try here again with your "probably not" answer. Who do you think you are? You apear to have many fakes in your collection as is clear from almost every recent topic you participate in and after that is clear you ruin purposely topics to mask your fake items and have not brought one piece of evidence to the table in any topic. And then you also belittle others? Be a man and face your loss and do better your homework when buying expensive items. The way you act now doesn't help anyone.

We don't know eachother (i think?), but your tone is totally unnecessary arrogant. I have inspected/handled these and think im very much up to date with the research regarding them. Reading your replies above here that bring absolutely no factual evidence at all to the table i even dare say in your own words: "much more than you". I refuse to buy these and yes - for your information i've had several chances and offers - simply because it is not yet known which of the brown variations are the originals and it is very clear that some of the by the old collectors accepted originals are not good. I do know that way too many of these are on the market and have monitored at least 15 of these surfacing on the market over the past year (year and a half), several not even included on the HJ forum or overview Jo shows above here. I've also seen it's usually the same sellers offering them, sometimes with the same cheap fake dark red terrible looking cases. Do a forumsearch here or on the HJ forum and you will find a few interesting topics and even a clown trying to sell them that has now been banned here on WAF. All very usefull information. One of the fake sellers originates here from the Netherlands. Its only a matter of time till we know more. I would very much like to see a microforensic investigation of the several types of these.

Now, back ontopic. As Jo points out all of the different types of these are suffering from pricedroppings. Also the originals. Several auctionhouses have recently had very low openingprices for them and unless something regarding originality gets known in short, they will probably drop more.

Let me ask you something in return, do you own one of these (possibly a red or green enameled ones).

Im not out to pick a fight, but im totally annoyed by how topics get ruined lately. Topics that could be pure gold for the whole collectingscene.

[Matthew]

If someone can point me in the direction of the badge that 'continues to plummet' in value, with a price tag between $500 to $800, I would appreciate the lead and in return I give my word to post the results of any non invasive testing right here for the benefit of others.
Those that read the other thread know which variety interests me and which I consider original. Not interested in broken, partial, ground found, half-eaten, rusty or otherwise damaged ones- not because I consider those 'planted' but simply because I do not find them appealing enough to add to my collection.

Seeing how they 'continue to plummet' in value- should be a win-win for everyone.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

This is the type I am after.
Looking forward to it.

cheers

Matt

[Jo Rivett]

I cannot agree. The HA marked badges are consistent with period quality and equal to the umarked badges.
The Herman Aurich trademark is believable and consistent with other badges produced by this Dresden manufacturer.

Gaston, you are right, we cannot, and must dismiss Garys "claim" without further discussion. He posted the exact "claim" about the DAF Treuewerkabzeichen, last week, and as you know, he was proven wrong, when it was shown that one of the badges was clearly cast.

In any case, there is no need to "discuss" any of this here, as like i already mentioned, research, "delving" into these, observing whats for sale, where it is constantly coming from, and what the asking (fleecing) prices are, are being carried out on another forum, and have been for some time.
Condensing the research, observations and "work" of many others, on a different forum, just to be posted here and "trampled upon by the same few trolls" is not fair, and cant be allowed to happen.