HJ Ski Fuhrer badge?

[J Hamaker]

I am new to this site, and posted a thread I believe in the wrong category, sorry. I found my father's stash of German militaria that he brought back from Germany in 1945/46. Some of everything, except one badge that I can't seem to find much about except that there are a lot of fakes flying around. It is a pair of crossed skis with a center of red enamel and swastika. The back has double pins with ges.gesch. and Wittman/Munchen. He traded cigarettes to the Germans for all the stuff. Even a large set of silver candelabras. I wonder how he got those back. I don't know about the fakes going around, but if this one is a fake it was made in 1945. Any help would be appreciated. The only example I could find was on a German site. They had no price on it and it was all in German. Mine is in better condition. Thanks in advance for any help. J Hamaker

[Matthew]

Hj

As they say a picture is worth a thousand words- I am sure I am not the only one who would like to see your badge. You would need to become an association member to post pictures here. You can either become one ($25 a year- good investment) or link pictures from a hosting service.
Welcome among us and looking forward to seeing it!

cheers

Matt

[J Hamaker]

Thanks for the reply. I am pretty much stupid when it comes to these sites, I am from an "earlier age". I need to figure out how to submit photos so I can get an evaluation from the experts on this site. I know the badge I have is real unless they were making fakes in 1945. I played with all my dads stuff in the fifties as a child. Somebody referred me to a site by Ailsby. The fake ones are obvious, however the one on there that is purported to be real is not as well done as the one I have. The ski tips are curled funny, and the swastika is not quite the same. Where does one get these things authenticated? Thanks again, Jesse

[Matthew]

[QUOTE=J Hamaker;6450945 Where does one get these things authenticated? Thanks again, Jesse[/QUOTE]

Right here is a good place to start. If you can send me your pictures to matt@cejuncker.com I will post them here for you.

cheers

Matt

[Darin S.]

Send him the best most detailed photos that you can. With this badge, super close detailed, well lit photos are a must, both front and reverse. Pay particular attention to the maker marks, the H.J. emblem in the center, and the wording on the outside ring. Three areas that the fakers are good at but miss small details.

[Matthew]

Posting for J.Hamaker:

[Matthew]

Hj

Last two. If anyone needs any closeups let me know- the pics are quite large so I can definitely zoom in if needed.
IMO a fine original of a rare badge
cheers

Matt

[Darin S.]

For me, this is an original badge when compared side by side to photos of an originals that I have. The construction, metal, and coloration all appear correct from the photos posted.

Edit: compare this one to the fakes offered by a well known German dealer for a high price, the differences will be seen.

[J Hamaker]

Does anybody know who were the recipients of this badge or roughly how many were made? It seems there is not much information surrounding this item which I find strange as the Germans were so meticulous in their documentation. Who, if anybody has the "final say" over whether an item is authentic or not?.

[Wood]

Not so much an award I think, than a badge denoting the position of HJ Ski Führer.
Pete

[Matthew]

Who, if anybody has the "final say" over whether an item is authentic or not?.

In this case it would be Wittmann of Munich if they still exist. However with this item being the NS period it could prove rather hard if not impossible as people involved in the production are likely not there to ask and secondly most Germans tend to 'forget the facts' when it comes to the period of National Socialism.
So we're down to the 'next best thing' which is what collectors call 'accepted original'. It simply means that at some point an item surfaced with a provenance that could be traced back to the recipient and/or more importantly to the period pre 1945.
This is the case with your badge. To paraphrase countless COA's- 'size, weight, dimensions and die characteristics are correct to known examples of pre 1945 origins'.
For legal purposes you may seek an assistance of one of the bona fide dealers to issue you with one of theirs 'Certificate of Authenticity' but if you look closely they will all contain 'In my (professional) opinion' clause which means just that- someone's opinion. Furthermore a good percentage of dealers use this (and other) forums for newest info on the artifacts they sell so as much as they would have you believe otherwise- this place right here and few other similar forums is probably the best place to ask for opinions of authenticity.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

cheers

Matt

[J Hamaker]

Thank you for that analysis, it makes total sense. Unless you have company records or someone who worked in factory making them I guess you can only go on how many show up over a long period of time. My father had a 14 year old HJ POW named Adolph Rauchen assigned to him as a helper while he was in Germany. They became good friends and we still exchange Christmas cards. Might not hurt to ask him if he knows anything. You are right that I don't think the topic of pre1945 Germany is very talked about especially among the ones who lived it. I have lots of photos of the fighter base and the planes my dad worked on if anyone is interested in copies. A lot of them are "named" planes. Might be someone's dads aircraft he flew.

[Bob Hritz]

You have a wonderful and valuable badge. I am sure you have had a number of inqueries. I would love to have it as well as several other forum members. Good luck and enjoy your badge or the funds this will surely provide.

Bob Hritz

[J Hamaker]

Bob thanks for the message. I would definitely part with it however the "range" of what I have read it could be worth and the reality of the offers I have had are insanely ludicrous. Several posts around the net say 6500 Euros to 10,000 US dollars. I have had offers of 750.00 to 2000.00
Normally the market/scarcity dictates the value. The problem is the market in this case appears to be capricious to say the least. The field seems to have it's share of opportunists as does all facets of human endeavor. Supposedly there are only a handful of original ones known. I Don't know why it's so hard to get a fair evaluation. It seems the fakes are interfering with the ability to fairly deal in this realm. I have been looking at this for only four days, and I can spot a fake in about two seconds. So which one is it, 750.00 or 10,000.00? Send me a private E-mail if you are interested, I would glad to discuss it. Jesse

[CWP]

$10,000 is in my opinion a total fantasy price for this. As with any collectible, a change in circumstances changes value; a private seller/collector is unlikely to get what a high-end dealer would ask for any item- and what a dealer asks and what he sells the item for may not be the same. It sounds like you are getting some low-ball offers and some that seem very fair to me. There are lots of serious collectors on this forum and I believe you are getting a sense here of the actual collector-to-collector market within which most of these items are bought and sold.