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Helmut Weitze

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SA Brownshirt and Coffee Can hat

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    #1

    SA Brownshirt and Coffee Can hat

    They came one Saturday morning by flashlight as people were unpacking at the old Frankfurt fleamarket in the mid-70s. I have the belt and buckle and the tie (somewhere) but the breeches I have didn't come with it and are way too big. The SA Mann must have been a cheapskate.......you can see he didn't buy a new hat when he changed outfits.......just a band to cover his old colors. The armband was sewn on just as it is still, and the badge was on it too.

    Ron









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    #2
    Outfit

    The collar piping is not authentic, IMO. The collar tabs look questionable as well. The shoulderboard looks authentic, from the photo shown.

    Comment

      #3
      Outfot

      Are the collar tabs yellow, or orange? They look yellow in the photos. The kepi's colored band could be original, but compared to the apple-green wool, the material looks more like a baby blanket. Could the wool top be a post-war addition to try to match the shirt? BTW, that collar piping looks eerily like the piping on the infamous "Ho" staff brownshirt piping. Original brownshirt piping doesn't fray that way, and isn't that shiny.

      Comment

        #4
        Great story, an early morning well spent!

        Comment

          #5
          Shirt

          You can see where a previous rank tab once was. The theory that the tabs were removed and replaced due to laundering, is negated by the fact they're machine-sewn. That scenario is still not impossible, but considering other questionable components, it's highly unlikely. My vote is: Original shirt, original buttons, original shoulderboard, and likely an original armband, but that's about all, IMHO.

          Comment

            #6
            It is an attractive set, Ron, though Sgstandard does raise some concerning questions. I would also add that the collar button appears to be replaced; these shirts came with bakelite or bone buttons at the collar and at the bottom, with metal buttons down the front. Someone has replaced the top button with a shiny brass one.

            Br. James

            Comment

              #7
              The fake "Ho" shirt also had machine sewn collar tabs which is of great concern. I agree that it is a real shirt, real shoulderboard and real armband with the balance played with.

              Comment

                #8
                Although it has not been directly said that I altered this shirt in any way, I will say straight out I have in no way changed anything on it. It is exactly as I got it. It has also been implied by not mentioning it as clearly original that the SA badge is not. It is an original badge. I never advanced any theory about the tabs being removed for cleaning or laundry......in fact to me the shirt does not appear to have ever been laundered. Of course I believe the tabs are original. The piping is what was on it, as well as the buttons and all the rest. As to the color of the tabs, I have no idea what to call it. People see colors differently, and some are color blind, I wouldn't call it yellow or orange......I would call to "old gold", but that is just me. I can tell you it is packed away to work on my room and I don't know where. The pictures posted were taken by me June 30, 2007, according to the metadata of my camera, which was a Nikon D80 with a 60mm Nikon Micro Lens and flash. I have better cameras now, though not the newest version Nikon or Leica. The pictures were taken handheld, not with tripod or etc.. They were processed with Adobe PhotoShop.......although I have a later version now. I did the NEF files again with the newer version PhotoShop I have now and these photos resulted.

                I should also add that the following:

                1. I did not get this from a "military dealer", instead the guy often came to the fleamarket with stuff he got from cleaning out attics, basements and outbuildings for the things in them. Once in a while he might have a military or TR item or items, but not very often. I usually only got things like old wall mount coffee grinders and etc. from him, which I sold to other military families or shipped back home to antique dealers.

                2. I paid about in DM the equivalent of $25 for the stuff, which is what he priced it to me for.......and I didn't bargin with him.....it pissed him off always, and I lost a few things by trying. He was not a very friendly character.

                3. He never sold me any other military stuff because some one told him he sold the shirt and cap etc. to me too cheap.

                4. The cap, although it came with the shirt, is not the "cotton" type coffee can that the others I got while in Germany were.......most of them I sold a long time ago.....they were not from the same guy. The cap is wool.

                While, apparently, some are concerned about it; however, I am not.......and it is not something that I want to sell. In fact, I have not tried to sell anything on the forum, although I have had many offers for some of the things I have posted. I have sold a few things to people who are on the forum, but not through the forum.......they are people I knew before I ever started on the forum.

                I know that what I say is only the story of how I got it, and the story or the item may not be believed.....but it is the truth, and, of course, each is entitled to their own opinion; however, several collectors....even some on the forum.......have actually seen and held the things here, and none have questioned them in the slightest way.

                I might add that not really being an SA collector, now or in the past, I have no idea what the IV/227 on the tab, or what group etc. the color is for.

                Thanks,
                Ron





















                Comment

                  #9
                  I agree with many of the points made, but IMO the tabs are original and may have been machine sewn originally (contrary to regulations) or later. The collar piping is possibly original IMO as well but would need to be examined in person. Lastly, some brownshirts, particularly the early ones, have a hole at the top button for button or pre-tied necktie mounting. I've seen other shirts with a standard button at the top as well as at the waist. I don't think that it was intended to use the normal shirt button as the upper and lower closures, but I'm sure it was done.
                  Overall I like the set.
                  Erich
                  Festina lente!

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Love the set! I would welcome this shirt in my collection any day: )

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Erich B. View Post
                      I agree with many of the points made, but IMO the tabs are original and may have been machine sewn originally (contrary to regulations) or later. The collar piping is possibly original IMO as well but would need to be examined in person. Lastly, some brownshirts, particularly the early ones, have a hole at the top button for button or pre-tied necktie mounting. I've seen other shirts with a standard button at the top as well as at the waist. I don't think that it was intended to use the normal shirt button as the upper and lower closures, but I'm sure it was done.
                      Overall I like the set.
                      Erich
                      Me too. Millions of brownshirts in a economically poor and struggling country and this type of inprovisation would have never ever ever happened? Many can have a opinion it doesn't mean that it's correct...

                      Comment

                        #12
                        All original but the collar piping appears shiny but should be as the shoulderboard piping, could just be the flash/pixels maybe.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Concern about piping

                          I understand that some are concerned about the piping, and, although I am not per se an SA collector and never was, I have no idea about it....except it was what was on it when I got it. Although some may think so, I don't really think that the Germans necessarily always obeyed the "regulations". I have seen feldgrau background cap eagles, which were clearly "originally" sewn on black panzer caps (in fact I have one) and many other such things. Maybe the guy didn't have the right type, or maybe he liked the one on the shirt better.......I have no idea.

                          For those who have checked out my personal information, or read the right post of mine, you by now know I was a JAGC CPT in the 8th ID in Germany in the mid-70s. I was in trial almost every day, either as a prosecutor or defense counsel, wearing class A uniforms. One of my green ones was actually an enlisted uniform that I bought because it was much cheaper.....and I had the officers leg stripes and cuff stripes sewn on it......I had more changes that way. Nobody ever gave me hell for wearing that uniform even though it was not "regulation".

                          The "regulation" JAG collar branch insignia at the time I went in and for some time before, and still, looked like this (sorry I don't know where mine are stuck, so I copied this off the internet from a military supply place ad).



                          However, the ones I wore were somewhat different....oh, still the same emblem, but a bit bigger and different in other ways. I only have left these two singles and never had a pair of these, but on the summer tan uniform we had then you only wore one of these and the bar was on the other collar. I have more and pairs similar but they are on my uniforms yet......packed away somewhere.

                          These two are each a bit different.







                          Sorry about the bad pictures, but I just grabbed them from where I had them and threw them down on a facial tissue.....flash put a slight blue cast.

                          I used to find these now and then at the fleamarkets in Germany and other JAGs paid me very well for a set when I found them. Juries sometimes made good comments about my insignia, and I never ever had one negative comment about my currently "non-regulation" insignia. If you could see them in hand and side by side the difference in the pens and wreath would jump out at you, as well as the insignia being somewhat bigger.

                          I can't add anymore.


                          Ron

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Ron,

                            I'd be tickled pink to have that brownshirt/kepi set in my collection. I have seen so many anomalies that this set just stands out as what I would expect from an early member keeping his brownshirt up to date as he saw fit. The kepi, with new color top is just spectacular. I love the frugality of the Germans when cash was hard to find. They made do with what they had and did it in style.

                            Bob Hritz
                            In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

                            Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Shirt

                              The shirt clearly had other collar tabs on it at one time. That doesn't necessarily condemn it, but it's not good, either.The current tabs don't match the armband in condition. The tabs never got wet, or they'd be wrinkled, while the armband looks like it went through the war. As for the piping - no one will convince me that's original piping. QUESTION: Since they made SA shoulderboards with the same piping as on the collar, how come you never see original shoulderboard piping like this? The reason for that is because it's fake, IMO - fakers build up shirts and tunics with original boards and tabs they find. But they CAN'T find the collar piping to complete their scheme.
                              And message to Ron C.: My comments about the shirt are no reflection on you whatsoever. I ASSUMED the shirt was as you found it.
                              And back to those tabs - I realize there were machine-sewn numerals used in the 1933-1938 era, but most were chain-stitched. I'd give a pass on that, but the numerals were sewn by someone who didn't realize that the numerals slant to the left, not the right, and they're not even in the right style. I'm not convinced the litzen is real, either, but I'm not a litzen expert.

                              Comment

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