SA Treffen 1931

[Br. James]

Thanks, Sgstandard; your understanding of the development of the SA-Treffen Braunschweig badge is helpful and mostly agrees with my own understanding. Where I have difficulty is with where the hollow-backed oval badge fits into the history. Littlejohn and Dodkins state the following (on p.74 of "Orders, Medals and Badges of the Third Reich"): "The [Brunswick] badge continued to be worn as a commemorative badge of honour after the rally until it was, like the Nuremberg 1929 badge, accorded the status of an official Party "decoration" on 6th November 1936." This statement agrees with Dr. Döhle's work. If this badge became an Honor Badge in early November of 1936, that would fit with the fact that we see examples of the solid-backed oval-shaped badge bearing the RZM logo and licensee code, but the hollow-backed oval-shaped version apparently does not bear the RZM logo. This would normally infer that the hollow-backed version appeared either at the Brunswick rally itself or in the first few years thereafter, since the RZM licensing system was in full force by 1936 when the solid-backed version came into use.

Br. James

[sgstandard]

Badge

The RZM was in place in 1933, and the 2nd pattern hollow-back Treffen badges ARE seen with RZM stampings but with usually just a number, and not the usual "M1/" designation, indicating earlier manufacture than aluminum versions, IMO.

[Br. James]

Yes, the RZM as an organization was in place in 1933...and it was created in about 1929, though it did not have full force until about 1935, as I understand it.

I have never seen or heard of the oval-shaped hollow-backed badge as bearing an RZM logo and rudimentary license code, so that is new to me...and I am always interested in learning something new! Thanks for that info, my friend.

Br. James

[Gregorio Torres]

IMO Br James must have a missunderstanding, and when he is talking about an oval version of the fist model he is refering to the second model in the hollow back version.

[Br. James]

Yes, thanks for your further clarification, Gregorio. My initial thinking was that both the round and the oval hollow-backed badges were simultaneously made and used for the 1931 Brunswick event and the solid-backed version marked with the RZM logo was from the post-1936 period when this badge became a Commemorative or Honorary Badge of the Movement. But if the oval hollow-back was produced during the years following the event itself, then I can see your point that, indeed, there were three separate versions: the original round hollow-backed event badge; the 2nd issue oval hollow-backed version issued after the event from approx. 1932-35; and the 3rd issue oval solid-backed version issued from 1936 onward. But I must honestly admit that I can't quite make the connection that the oval hollow-backed version was not produced until the years after the event took place.

Earlier this morning I came across an example of the oval hollow-backed version on the eMedals website, under SA badges; it bears the caption: "Badge of the SA-Meeting Brunswick 1931 - Second version, die stamped hollow version, non-magnetic, extremely fine condition." I promised to post where a photo of the oval hollow-backed version of the Braunschweig SA-Treffen badge could be found, and voila!

Best to you and all,

Br. James

[Gregorio Torres]

Thank you my friend
Actually, among collectors only two models are considered: The rounded primitive model made for the metting, and the oval one made post 1935 in both hollow back and solid versions, made when the badge was raised to a cathegory of national badge from a simple consideration as tinnie. Both versions of the second badge can be found with RZM marks.
Regards my friend

[Br. James]

Thank you again, Gregorio. It is obvious that during my 50+ years as a student and collector of the NSDAP and TR era, I have missed and/or misunderstood things that passed me! But my problem seems to be summarized in your sentence that "Both versions of the second badge can be found with RZM marks." Having seen examples over the years of the oval hollow-backed version without any maker's mark, let alone an RZM logo (such as the one I mentioned on eMedals), and others with pre-RZM maker's names and locations -- which would not have been permitted after 1936 when this badge became recognized as an Honor Badge -- I cannot seem to get past this one point! Apologies for being so stubborn!

Br. James

[Gregorio Torres]

Dear friend, we are everyday learning and teaching something. Today I´ve been refreshing your memory, tomorrow you´ll do the same for me.
Very best regards.

[sgstandard]

Badge

The bottom line appears to be: Why would the 2nd-pattern hollow back Treffen be found with NO RZM markings, when it was made after 1933?
It doesn't really make sense - but maybe like many things, there are just exceptions without any explanation. The mystery will be solved when we find a photograph of a 2nd pattern Treffen badge worn on an SA uniform without any shoulderboard, proving the manufacture of the 2nd pattern badge was worn prior to 1933.

[jerry c.]

After seeing the second pattern repro posted by Jo rivett, I don't think any hollow back without a RZM mark can be considered authentic IMO.

[Gregorio Torres]

After seeing the second pattern repro posted by Jo rivett, I don't think any hollow back without a RZM mark can be considered authentic IMO.

Sorry Jerry, but you´re wrong.
The main part of the badges of the second model in the hollow back version come without any MM, and are legit items considered as original by the speciallized collectors. Please search on this forum to see a lot of shamples.
Regards
Greg

[jerry c.]

Sorry Jerry, but you´re wrong.
The main part of the badges of the second model in the hollow back version come without any MM, and are legit items considered as original by the speciallized collectors. Please search on this forum to see a lot of shamples.
Regards
Greg

I want to be wrong. I guess I should have said that I can't spot any details that set an unmarked badge apart from the quality repro.

Here's an example in my collection that I was convinced was authentic. What is your opinion of it?

[Br. James]

Hi Jerry,

You refer to "...the second pattern repro posted by Jo rivett" in your note #25 -- where exactly is that posting from Jo? I don't find it, or any other note posted by "Josef Fuess" among the earlier notes on this thread.

Many thanks,

Br. James

[jerry c.]

Hi Jerry,

You refer to "...the second pattern repro posted by Jo rivett" in your note #25 -- where exactly is that posting from Jo? I don't find it, or any other note posted by "Josef Fuess" among the earlier notes on this thread.

Many thanks,

Br. James

I can't find it either. In fact, I can't find any posts by "Josef fuess"... Is he no longer a member?

[Gregorio Torres]

Jerry, we need more detailed pictures to be 100% sure about your badge. Post them if you can, please.
But 2nd model hollow back badges without MM have come to my hand directly from original owners´ families. I have no doubt about the authenticity of these badges, and they are widely accepted by the most renowned collectors and researchers.
Even there are shamples with MM (Poellat) but without RZM code.
If my memory don´t fail Assmann was the only one maker who marked the hollow back versions of this badge.
Only because somebody show a copy of this kind you must not condem all of them.
A lot of political medals and badges post 1935 do exist without RZM marks, and you have to know it.