Blutorden award document 1st type ok?

[Jon Fish]

In my opinion Jon is totally right.
I don't think this document has any chance.

By the way did BO documents exist with a Reichsfuhrer SS ink stamp as on this one? I presume not?

Koen

Koen, well spotted, that's 1 of at least half a dozen major issues. Good to see you doing your research and homework

[Oberbootsmann]

You asked me, I told you its fake, then you asked again the forum. That's fine but no point sending a PM first to me if your not listening, just ask the forum in the first place.

You told me that he's not in the BO list - IMO that doesn't prove 100% that he wasn't a BO recipient.

Never mind, I won't bother you again.

Regards

[jabnus]

Guys, lets try another angle: anyone who collects passes has seen the many MANY fake ones like this pop up on the market the past few years. Gladly so the fakers don't have the skills (yet?) to make perfect copies and thus often destroy their creations in the manner as shown in this topic to make the items look more authentic. Somehow this tactic works as they seem to create more and more crap like this. Anyone who collects passes will however immediatly recognise these fakes.

Next thought: the fakers aim on the unexperienced collector who has absolutely no knowledge about the real deal and think's that they can have a quick bargain. These items usually don't come as a bargain and if you dont know what you do you'll (lots) of money.

As Jon and others have mentioned: if you want to collect items like this you really need to do your homework. In his case of a BO recipient the very first step would be to check the name of the recipient, but also a number of other things can be checked. It's not that people like Jon don't want to give their expertise away, but it's more and more a matter of educating yourself and NOT type certain things on the forums anymore. I used to do the same, till people started asking me questions about certain badges like weight, size in MM et cetera and then tadaa: another fake! or on certain Dutch awards some of the research i did, just for them to make more profit. Anyone can learn this, it's not a big secret, but collecting the rarest of the rarest documents (or whatever items actually) just needs studying of known real examples.

[der-hase-fee]

This is another example why the forum format has outlived its time.

Disgusting.

[Gary Symonds]

Why would Victor Lutze sign this document?

[ErichS]

Why would Victor Lutze sign this document?

Because the award document was issued by the Der Oberste SA Fuhrer in which Lutze was the Chief of staff.

[jabnus]

Hi Andreas,

Maybe disgusting maybe not, on the one hand the forums are great, on the other they are also for a very great part responsible for the fakes getting better and better. I bet the fakers of this pass love this topic and won't make the same mistakes again on their next frankenstein. Like you i'd wish we lived in a perfect world where no fraudsters existed, but the unfortunately it's not so.

It's not that no one doesn't want to help out anymore (i still reply almost daily on the forums), but some things are not being told anymore. Maybe it's a matter of getting a bit paranoid, but if i see a topic like last week with someone asking if a topic can be made with all sorts of good attachment devices on plaques "to distinguish" from the fakes i feel it's more like a good educationtopic for the fakers as for the benefit of the collectors.

I have a Croation SS badge for sale on my friends website, recently someone was mailing he wanted to buy it but needed exacts measurements, weight and some other questions. A serious buyer or not? After giving the details suddenly no answers anymore, i fear with great fears... Just another example.

Back to this topic about the BO pass: on mili321 are currently more fake SS ausweis than originals (and the site owners have no problem with them being advertised), this BO pass comes from the same source and is listed there. These fake ones are really not that hard to spot, especially when doing a bit of research. Caveat Emptor... and if it looks too good it IS often too good!

In the future we will see much better fakes, up tot he popint where we can only rely anymore on micro forensics. Militaria collecting will become more of a science!


best regards,
Gaston

[ErichS]

I think that if you actually have original examples of an item in your collection it's much easier not to be fooled and in this case, Jon has done his homework and my hat is off to him. All of us who have been in this hobby for some time have our specialities and mine isn't documents thank god!

[Erich B.]

Just saw this thread and I agree with Jon--I've got an original to compare as well and this one would only fool someone who hadn't seen an original.
Erich

[chen]

I think that if you actually have original examples of an item in your collection it's much easier not to be fooled and in this case, Jon has done his homework and my hat is off to him. All of us who have been in this hobby for some time have our specialities and mine isn't documents thank god!

Well said.