1st Patttern Blood Order vs 2nd Pattern Blood Order

[ErichS]

I wanted members opinions regarding the the two patterns of BOs and their importance and status.

Some collectors in the past have said that they wish that the party would have chose a different award to reward those who sacrificed for the party during the Kampfzeit.

Another collector stated that he felt that the 2nd pattern was a good conduct medal.

Most historians credit Martin Bormann for the 2nd issue of the BO due to him not qualifing for the 1st issue. Most were awarded to Austrians for their service to the party during the time of it's outlaw in Austria.

It seems that you had to sacrifice more in some cases to receive a 2nd pattern such as being given jail time or being badly wounded in service to the party, yet it doesn't carry the status as 1st patterns with the Alte Garde or collectors.

I think that there maybe should have been a special award created for those that preformed special service to the party before the assumption of power and left the BO only for those who took part in the Putsch.

What do you guys think?

[Jon Fish]

Both just as rare and both as saught after these days.
As to awarding yes the 1st pattern was for the Putsch and the 2nd for hardships. However some of the 1st pattern recipients didn't do a lot on the 8/9th Nov 23 they just happened to be right place,right time. Some of those 2nd pattern recipients suffered a lot of hardship such as time in prison to qualify for their medals.
So there is no definitive answer IMO. Both are important in NSDAP folklore.
Good conduct medal!? lol ,no way. Anyway you have the 3 grades of NSDAP cross that covers long service.Also the honoury AH GPB for a special award.

As far as collecting goes. Well a 2nd pattern,cased with documents will fetch just as much as a first pattern.

[Br. James]

I probably have no business responding to Erich's questions, given that I don't now nor have I ever owned a BO of either issue...but here I am anyway! In theory I must agree with Erich that "there...should have been a special award created for those that preformed special service to the party before the assumption of power and left the BO only for those who took part in the Putsch." That statement certainly makes good sense and it would not only have created yet another national political award to give but it would have maintained the ethos that a BO trager was a participant in the 8/9 November 1923 event, just as the Coburg Badge represented participation in that event a year earlier. Clear and clean.

But that isn't what happened, and the BO became 'corrupted' by becoming a catch-all for any special service to the NSDAP that needed to be rewarded...though not actually acknowledged as such, since I'm sure in most people's minds, the BO always stood for participation in the Putsch, period. I suppose the Honorary GPB could have become what the Second Issue BO actually was -- a reward for esteemed service -- but the Honorary GPB also became corrupted in that it made the wearer look like he/she was a member and supporter of the Party since 1925, at least, but in fact people who weren't even members of the NSDAP received the Honorary GPB anyway. Like military leaders and captains of industry. It's a shame that more thought wasn't given to both awards before letting them represent something that the recipient could not claim to warrant. But sadly, we can't re-make history, so it is what it is.

I too have read that Martin Bormann used his considerable political weight to get himself a BO, and in his case, apparently he wanted it just so he could march in the Putsch Parade each year as one of the elitest of the elite. That is hardly a good enough reason either to create a new class of a badge or to award it to someone who only wanted it for show. The fact that Bormann wasn't at the Feldherrnhalle in 1923 is just that, a FACT. He and his brother joined the NSDAP in April of 1927 -- two years after the Party was reconstitued by Hitler -- and yet he wore a Blood Order...! He probably wanted a CB, as well!

I have no reason to believe that anyone wearing the GPB was ever challenged as to whether he/she really held a Party membership number under 100,000 -- though I realize that they were all supposed to be carrying the document that proved their entitlement. But in social circles or even Party circles, if someone showed up at an event wearing a GPB, it must have been respected at face value. So too with the BO, no? Just as I can't imagine anyone walking up to a person wearing a GPB and asking to see the reverse of the badge, I can't imagine doing the same thing to anyone wearing a BO, asking to see the number on the bottom of the medal's reverse!

Apologies for chuntering on, but it's a fascinating subject! Thanks for raising it, Erich.

Br. James

[Br. James]

One more comment, if I may! Your reference that 2nd Issue BOs were "mostly awarded to Austrians for their service to the party during the time of it's outlaw in Austria" is most interesting and also news to me. If the scenario found on Wikipedia is correct, then National Socialism was a pan-German idea and existed in Austria prior to its German manifestation, with the DAP (German Workers Party) in Austria changing its name to the DNSAP (German National Socialist Workers Party) in mid-1918, when the German version of the DAP took two more years to become the NSDAP. I have often wondered how early Austrian Nazis were officially recognized, since they must have had their own separate membership numbering system until 1938 and the Anschluss united both wings of the Party. If that is the case, then it seems somehow out of place to award the early DNSAP members with the BO since the Putsch was a particularly German event. So confusing, but in any case, there must have been many more early Austrian Nazis than would be indicated by the 2,500 or so recipients of the 2nd Issue BO; like in Germany, there must have been many thousands of early Austrian Nazis, no?

Br. James

[ErichS]

Jon, you are correct regarding the right time and place to earn the 1st pattern BO but you had to be a party member and a follower of Hitler from the begining. To me nothing beats the cache of the 1st pattern and all of those Putsch anniversary marches that they were apart of. After the re issue of the BO in 1938 the Old Guard felt as though their medal was worth less but we know that wasn't true.

[JoeW]

I regard the difference in some collector attitudes towards the first and second issue BOs as a combination of snobbery and frustration at not being able to ID the owner. Perhaps that first attitude was also found in those "participants" in the 9.11.23 Putsch who saw their mojo a bit diminished with all the nouveau BO owners from the Ostmark or the Alte Reich who were accorded the medal because of the newer admission standards. But not only did some of those "participants" as Jon pointed out happen to be in the right place at the right time, some didn't even have to be there. If they were on their way to the Putsch and were waylaid by the police or an unforeseen traffic accident, those "participants" could still be eligible for the BO.

Is the historical opinion that Bormann was behind the creation of the new admission standards for the BO based on any facts, or merely conjecture that as he ended up with one and he was chief of staff for Hess when the standards were changed, ergo he did it? The timing of the change in mid 1938 would lead one to believe that it was meant to reward the contribution of the Nazi brothers in new Gaues of the Ostmark, but the standards also applied to the Alte Reich. Perhaps there was a push by some of the Alte Garde who had suffered in other parts of the Reich to be recognized with the "walking Martyr" award. That was essentially what it was... an association with the 16 Martyrs who had died while marching with Hitler.

I think the recipient of my second issue BO certainly suffered as much or more for his efforts in the Dollfuss Putsch, than most of the first pattern BO holders. While several of his compatriots were executed, he was sentenced to life with one-day a year being in solitary. Not a pleasant future for that young Nazi.

[JoeW]

Br. James, I looked to Patzwall for info on Bormann and only learned that photo evidence establishes Bormann was wearing the BO by 1937, but he was listed in the Vorschlagliste of January 30, 1939. If Patzwall is correct about that 1937 date, then Bormann received the BO before the expansion of the awarding parameters in August 1938 by Schwarz.

[Ron Weinand]

When you consider the number issued and the number of party members, regardless of the number awarded, its still a very rare award IMO.

[Br. James]

Interesting, Joe. While Patzwall didn't have Bormann's BO number when he published his list (and I don't know what number Bormann received), Patzwall's list of those recipients dated 30.1.39 illustrates that that list as well as others were not prepared in alphabetical order, and this would mean that if Bormann received his 2nd Issue BO in 1937, then the list of 1st Issue awards didn't really stop with #1,500 but kept on going, with the list itself being made up some years after perhaps many (if not most) of those awards were already made. Sort of like the official CB list which was compiled after the 10th anniversary of the event.

As a historical footnote, I happened to notice on Patzwall's list of 20.1.39 that BO #1504 was issued to a Josef Schuster, who was at one time a member of the 5th Company of SA Regiment 'München' -- the same company and regiment that a number of other Putsch recipients belonged to, though most of them received their BOs as 1st Issue. Josef (Sepp) Schuster immigrated to the USA after the Putsch, perhaps to avoid prosecution for treason, and he was next seen as a local leader of the League of the Friends of the New Germany (Bund der Freunde des Neuen Deutschland, 1933 to 1935), which became the American-German People’s League (the Amerikadeutscher Volksbund – commonly known as the German-American Bund) in 1936. "Gauleiter Josef (Sepp) Schuster" was the leader of “Ortsgruppe Brooklyn” from 1934 to 1936, at which time he immigrated back to Germany. As I recall reading of him, he received the BO and it must have been awarded shortly after he returned home.

Br. James

[ErichS]

James, another example is Max Sollmann, party number 35362 who resceived BO #1503 and like Schuster he left Germany after the Putsch for Columbia and returned in 1937. As a Putsch participant he received his BO in 1939 which was also a 2nd issue medal. I have Sollmann's small GPB in my collection.


I should have mentioned in my original post that more than a few Putsch participants received a 2nd pattern medal like the Schuster and Sollmann examples.

[JoeW]

Very interesting about Schuster Br. James. And Sollman too. Thank you Erich for pointing out another of the prodigal sons of the Putsch.

But Br. James, Patzwall did point out that according to his listings, 36 Blood Orders were withdrawn from recipients for unsatisfactory actions. So perhaps Bormann received his from these available awards of the first series and his listing was included with the first list of the second group?

[Br. James]

Thanks, friends. I'm starting to wonder whether too much emphasis has been/is being placed on the significance of '1st Issue' as opposed to '2nd Issue' Blood Orders? Perhaps what initially happened was that a specific number of BO awards were ordered and produced -- say, 1,500 -- and they were awarded individually or in groups as the occasion warranted. Then, when it became obvious that the original number of awards was running low, another order was placed for additional examples -- say, 2,500. When the last of the original 1,500 were given out, a final list was made up of who received which numbered award, but the giving of BOs never stopped; with the new supply on hand, additional awards were made regularly and new lists of awardees were generated, also after the fact of the award date. This would account for someone receiving the award of a BO in 1937 but not appearing on a list until years later. Again, just a thought...!

Br. James

[JoeW]

I think the scenario you present is quite plausible. But as Patzwall pointed out, only photographic evidence would support the receipt of the BO by Bormann in 1937. It would be nice to have some documentation to support the idea.

[ErichS]

James, we know for sure that the 1st issue was only to be awarded to Putsch vets period. The 2nd issues main purpuse from what we read was for service and sacrifice to the party. The only reasons that Putsch vets received it, it seems to be because that they didn't apply for the award before the 1st striking ended in 1936. If there never was a 2nd striking thanks to Bormann, the left over Putsch vets may have been out of luck.

The 1st pattern medals seemed to have been numbered in batches as the applications came in. For example, certain Companys of the SA Munich were in most cases numbered close together. This would make it efficient for the maker of the medal to process the incoming orders in groups. We know that the all the medals had their silver content mark hand stamped first and then the number was added later when the orders arrived.

[Jon Fish]

I have a 2nd pattern medal to a member of an SA regiment that is a 2nd pattern in the early 1500 range,as per Erichs example. So in essence a 1st pattern as far as award criteria goes. I also have a first pattern to a guy who had his medal taken away due to fraud. I have copies of his court papers, he used false travel documents as well as multiple fraud offences and was kicked out of the NSDAP,expelled. Re applied for the party twice in the 40's and each time turned down. His medal though interestingly seemed not to have been returned to the office. 9 novembre