Looking at two sets of plastic miniature SA soldiers, usually they are correct representation in miniature detail. I noticed one set on the left in the picture have brown trousers, the figure on the right is wearing light tan trousers. What do the the two different coloured trousers signify ?. The caps have also different colours, this I believe was a normal thing connected to which area the various soldiers came from, but the trousers! Any information welcome.
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Hello.
If you look at dealers sites you'll see different shades of khaki for SA uniforms, mostly the early types. This is more evident with the trousers.
I think the man on the left is representing the SS as he has the silver buckle, musician wings are balack and silver, tabs, etc.
The SS was part of the SA until 1934 which I presume these figures are pre-dating?
Regards,
Chris. -
While I don't claim to be an expert on toys of the NSDAP or the Third Reich, I do have several examples in my collection, and I also have two fine books on the subject: "The War Toys 1, The Story of Hausser-Elastolin" by Reggie Polaine and David Hawkins and "The War Toys 2, The Story of Lineol" by Dennis Fontana, both reference volumes published by New Cavendish Books, London, in 1991. Both of the figures in question appear to be of Elastolin origin and both are of SA Men. Elastolin also produced figures of SS Men but they were always shown wearing black kepis, trousers and boots, while SA figures from both Elastolin and Lineol wore light tan ("SA brown") kepis that matched their Traditions Brown Shirts, and all wore trousers of darker brown ("Havana brown") and brown boots. From these standards, the band leader figure on the left in the photo appears a bit odd because of his kepi being colored to match his trousers -- this was apparently not an attempt to give this figure an officer's rank by providing him with a colored kepi top since the entire cap was painted in the same darker brown color -- while the figure on the right wears trousers that matched his Traditions Brown Shirt, which neither Elastolin or Lineol appear to have produced. Of course, it is very rare to find toy soldiers in pristine condition as they were normally strenuously played with and absorbed numerous chips and scrapes. I would imagine that a concerned parent might have tried to restore some of the more heavily damaged figures by occasionally repainting them. I hope this is helpful to you.
Br. JamesComment
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Gentlemen,
Thanks for the posts. The two figures belong to a friend of mine, in fact he has full two sets, a complete SA band and a full SA company. Both (I think) in the original thin cardboard boxes and lying or rapped in tissue paper, both sets have the same colour patterns as the two pictured figures, we thought, the dark brown trousers may have been a dress peculiarity given to SA musicians setting them apart from the rank and file.
The two sets of figures are in near pristine condition, don't think a child ever had these in it hands. To my mind, I can't believe they have been retouched up and given a wrong colouring. I wish I'd taken pictures of the sets, better still I wish I owned them.
RegardsComment
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Hello.
Regarding the re-painting, I initially thought this could be the case especially if you look at the edge of the kepi visor where the lighter khaki paint is evident.
But, I think this is the base colour coming through.
The tie is the same colour as the trousers and kepi but has the cross strap over the top which looks originaly painted to the figure. There is also the lighter colour khaki on the tie.
Regards,
Chris.Comment
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It wasn't the dark brown trousers that caught my attention, but the tan colored trousers -- those of the same coloring as the SA-Traditions Brown Shirts. The darker brown trousers look right to me. Also, as Chris mentioned, the visibility of an undercoat of lighter-colored paint under the darker brown of the kepi on the left looks like this piece was either played with or was very sloppily painted. That figure also has some other apparent chipping problems on the band leader's baton. Just some friendly observations...
Br. JamesComment
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Chris, Br.James,
Again thanks for the posts. Br.James I did understand in your first post, the point that the darker tan trousers were the norm, it seems to have got lost in my second post.
However in the meantime, I've spent some time looking at SA pictures in the internet. I did find a couple of black & white SA group photos, looking at them they appear to be from one group. The trousers worn by these people have a wide range of tan tones - dark to light, some match the same colour tone of the shirt others are distinctly darker, if they were from the same unit seems odd state of affairs. Please take a look.Comment
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Hello Soldon.
The SA progressed from a fairly small organisation to what became 4.5 million men (on paper anyway). At it's peak, 20% of German men in the age group were in the SA. This is unique in European paramilitary terms.
Bearing this in mind, there is simply no way a uniformed appearance could be achieved.
The early 'colonial' shirts (found in a warehouse in Austria, the legend goes ) were paired with civilian breeches. The traditional Southern German breeches seem to fit well.
As their numbers swelled, the uniform evolved. The 'colonial' shirts were used up and new shirts were produced, again paired with civilian trousers and then riding breeches.
Accross all of Germany as the SA grew 'up' country, all types of khaki material was used for the SA uniform. There was not the same uniformity as the NSDAP for instance.
So, the different colours in trousers doesn't signify any particular unit or role.
One thing to note. The brown shirt was considered a traditional uniform. The tunic and breeches were the same colour as those worn by the men in your photo. A couple of the men in the photo may have worn the brown shirt with their tunic breeches but that is certainly not the reason for the difference.
I hope that helps.
Nice photo by the way.
It clearly illustrates the difference in material and colours used.
Regarding the figures you posted at the start of this thread, I would be suprised if the painting was done to signify my notes above. BR will answer that better than I can.
Regards,
Chris.Comment
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Soldiers
I agree that the different color SA breeches and kepi are of no consequence except whether or not they were repainted. As the photographs prove, brownshirts and breeches varied greatly, and sometimes it looks like even wool breeches were worn with the brownshirt.Comment
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The all tan guy might be an early Political Leader.
StephenComment
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Thanks for that suggestion, Stephen...one I hadn't thought of! But from the details provided in Jeff Clark's excellent work on "Uniforms of the NSDAP," we see that early Political Leaders also normally wore darker breeches/trousers when they wore their own version of the Traditions Brown Shirt uniform, like the SA, and the PLs also wore a much darker necktie than did the SA -- perhaps black. When the "suit" look came in -- the tunic jacket and breeches -- then both the tunic and the trousers matched in color, but Chris is right on the money with his description of the great variations that were normally accepted with the colors of the SA Traditions Brown Shirt uniform, worn by many thousands of SA Men. Soldon's two photos also illustrate the great variety of shades of tan and brown that were worn in the period, some undoubtedly varying due to non-permanent dye lots, exposure to the sun and to repeated washing.
But our original discussion began with toy soldiers! Though it is obvious that a certain amount of effort was spent by the manufacturers -- Elastolin and Lineol -- toward duplicating actual military and political uniform colors, perhaps what we are seeing in that first photo is the work of yet another toy manufacturer. I wonder what name those two figures carry on the bottoms of their bases?
Br. JamesComment
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Bear in mind as well that while these figures were manufactured in the factories, they were often sent home with the workers to be painted. Workers were paid per returned fully painted figures. Painting variation may have to do with all that has been noted but may also be the factory frau's interpretation of an SA uniform. I think it's Reggie Polaine who has a wonderful figure in his collection of a Heer officer on a horseback...a blue horse to be exact!
Regards maker, both appear to be Elastolin (Hausser) pieces.Comment
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Thanks everyone for the posts. I had placed the thread on another forum, I did get a reply, which does seem to add up, here's most of it. What do you think ?
"The darker trousers and cap actually and largely mean service dress (Dienstanzug) and in fact a tunic should be worn with that. The other one is the Greater service dress, which in fact was worn with the brownshirt and the lighter colour kepi.
This is how I see it! They could have made another toy figure. Maybe one in this form exists, I do not know. It is a possibility!"
RegardsComment
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