SA Sports Armband

[Rommel1933]

Thank you so much for sharing all your inputs on this armband. It truly is an interesting subject and full of unknowns not unlike many of our TR memorabilia!!

Thank you again, I appreciate all the comments

Scott

[David North]

Hello David,

when I have more time I will see if I can find again a small note for the brassard with Sportabzeichen. I have once read (maybe ten or more years ago) about it in an older document, but can't remember where I have seen it. In the note it was said by who such brassard was to be used. When I can find it again........and that's the question. I really do not know anymore in what old book or document I have read it. The search will be looking for a needle in a haystack!

What I know "out of heart" is that the woven SA sports-badge was allowed to be worn upon the left side with the sports-dress and training-dress.

Dear Wilhelm

I truly hope that you can dig out "...in the note it was said by who such brassard was to be used...". Although brassards are not within my area of collecting, however with an interest in all things SA, I still feel a tad uncomfortable about tagging this armband as SA Wehrmannschaften.

Hoping that the mystery will be finally solved.

Regards,

David

[wilhelm Saris]

Wished I knew where I have read it. That would be much easier. It will be a great luck to find it back, as it must be included in one of the thousands of notes and documents I have. Do my best to find it!

[wilhelm Saris]

In the "Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung", number 2 from July 1, 1942 this announcement was made (Ziffer 74, pages 13-14: service-dress for SA-Wehrmannschaften):
As with an order from the Oberste SA-Führung from December 6, 1939 (FO 2b Nr.13704) with the service-dress for the SA-Wehrmannschaften the swastika brassard has to be worn upon the left upper arm. This is the brassard we all know and was worn by many organizations.

Further the announcement mentions: The wearing of the official SA-Wehrmannschaft-brassard with woven in "SA-Wehrabzeichen" with the service-dress is forbidden. The to the SA-groups supplied brassards with the woven in SA-Wehrabzeichen are only allowed to be worn by Wehrmänner, which do service in civil.

Maybe with this a problem is solved and a discussion can end. The brassard with the SA-Wehrabzeichen was an official item and did actually exist during the Third Reich. When it was made is not known to me, as I cannot find a new article-number for this brassard, as sanctioned by the Reichszeugmeisterei. What is known is that in the earliest stage of the existance of the SA-Wehrmannschaften often they were seen in civil, but such a brassard then was not worn at all! The wearing upon a photograph hardly will be found, I think!

[wilhelm Saris]

Now knowing now where to look I checked SA magazines from which I have copies. I have seen only a few photographs of SA-Wehrmannschaften, during training, wearing civil. No brassard was worn at all.
Maybe WAF-members with SA knowledge and magazines can have a look in their material. Maybe something will "pop up"!"

[Br. James]

Wonderful information, Wim, and most helpful, too! Thank you so very much!

Br. James

[Rommel1933]

Great stuff... I will keep this in my "known genuine" area of the collection!

Thank you everyone for all the A+++++ research and opinions!

Scott

In the "Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung", number 2 from July 1, 1942 this announcement was made (Ziffer 74, pages 13-14: service-dress for SA-Wehrmannschaften):
As with an order from the Oberste SA-Führung from December 6, 1939 (FO 2b Nr.13704) with the service-dress for the SA-Wehrmannschaften the swastika brassard has to be worn upon the left upper arm. This is the brassard we all know and was worn by many organizations.

Further the announcement mentions: The wearing of the official SA-Wehrmannschaft-brassard with woven in "SA-Wehrabzeichen" with the service-dress is forbidden. The to the SA-groups supplied brassards with the woven in SA-Wehrabzeichen are only allowed to be worn by Wehrmänner, which do service in civil.

Maybe with this a problem is solved and a discussion can end. The brassard with the SA-Wehrabzeichen was an official item and did actually exist during the Third Reich. When it was made is not known to me, as I cannot find a new article-number for this brassard, as sanctioned by the Reichszeugmeisterei. What is known is that in the earliest stage of the existance of the SA-Wehrmannschaften often they were seen in civil, but such a brassard then was not worn at all! The wearing upon a photograph hardly will be found, I think!

[wilhelm Saris]

Rommel1933:
Just the swastika brassard we all know was worn by the SA-Wehrmannschaft

[David North]

Here is a studio image of three chaps, the one in the middle as SA-Wehrmannschaften. Note the SA-Wehrmannschaft buckle that he is wearing. Despite the unfortunate positioning of the ink spot, clearly no armband is being worn with his uniform.

Regards,

David

[wilhelm Saris]

the ink spot is made over the swastika brassard. If you look well you can slightly see the red band (but only very, very slightly).
Look in my volume 4 from the headgear-series, pages 516 through 520. The men of the SA-Wehrmannschaft do wear the regular swastika brassard (they are uniformed). I have checked various SA-magazines and when wearing the authorized uniform the photographs include all the swastika brassard. Just a simple fact and according the regulation. You can only see the SA-Wehrabzeichen worn when in civil, but the fact is where to find photographs. There must be around!

In the "Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung" from December 29, 1939 the authorized uniform was in-depth described on pages 68-70. With I.1. it is noted: Rock (SA-Wehrsportrock) mit am linken Oberarm Hakenkreuzarmbinde. In post 19 I mentioned what was said in the Verordnungsblatt about the SA-Wehrabzeichen brassard and who had to wear it: SA-Wehrmannschaften, not uniformed, but in civil.

[David North]

You have better eyesight than myself Wilhelm. I hold the original of this photograph and try as I may, I cannot confidently say that an armband is being worn. Having said that, if an armband was being worn it would explain the positioning on the ink spot - to obliterate the swastika!

So, if I read the past posts correctly, for a member of the SA Wehrmannschaft (a) a regular political armband with uniform and (b), SA sports badge emblem armband (which started this thread) with civilian clothes? Is that correct and if so, why wear an armband with civilian clothes? Is there a precedent with any other Third Reich organisation?

Regards,

David

[wilhelm Saris]

Hello David,

yes, I have read this in other organizations, as well. Don't ask my for what organizations this was valid, but it was with some.
Or in a different way, as for example the difference in brassard with the NSKK, as far as I remember: NSKK man also member of the NSDAP did wear the regular swastika brassard; NSKK member not being an NSDAP member did wear the brassard with NSKK symbol.

There is so much from the TR we do not know about, or organizations we hardly have ever or not at all heard! I am in this "business" since about 1970 and still am wondered every day. See for example the last issue from the Military Advisor with my Junkers-article. Who has ever seen the badge which is on the cover. After so many years badges popped up that no person has ever seen. That's the fun of research: when finding something no person or only the one or the other has knowledge about!

Regards,
wilhelm

[wilhelm Saris]

If someone is able to help us here, then it will be "THE" person, who has a great SA-knowledge: Laurens. Maybe he even is able to give us a "shot" of an SA-Wehrmann in civil!!

[sgstandard]

Uniform

It looks like there is NOT an armband on the center guy in the photo. , IMO. I think the ink was just a spill. Usually, swastikas are "scratched" off. Covering it with ink seems implausable, plus you just can't see one beyond the ink.

[laurens]

Like Wim said, the armband in this thread was worn by the Wehrmänner who served in civil cloth.

The SA-uniformed formations used the normal party-brasserd. The Verordungsblatt further mentioned that it's strictly forbidden to wear the armband with Wehr-Abzeichen on the SA-uniform.

I have pictures of the armbands in wear, and ask sgstandard to post them for me.

I found this pictures in various period issues, but even withput these pictures, the information of the VB was enough.

Enjoy the pics!

Best,
Laurens