Some Eagle Orders...

[Antonio Scapini]

Thanks guys for all your opinion about.
As I told this is not my field so I can't have my opinion on these pieces.

But now, reading all the answers, I'm confused... Good or bad?!?

Number 2 is a fake if, as Chris said, it is a 1937 model with swords that were introduced in 1939.

I'd like to be sure also on the others before spend my money...
Thanks to all will help me in this research.

[Peter J.]

Hi Chris,

"Cross #2 is the very rare 1937 first type, without the "fan" suspender. The swords first appear in the year of 1939 when this design was already long gone. So, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have this type of cross with swords, therefore this example is a fantasy piece."

The facts regarding the date of institution is correct, but the interptretation of these "facts" have been discussed over the years. When the fan actually first occurred has generally been presumed to be in conjunction with the introduction of the swords (1939), some believe it was even before that date. This is the 2nd cross with similar features I've seen on this forum, which at least IMO opens up for the possibility that a few "non-fanned" crosses were produced with the swords added, before the fan made it's indtroduction. We can guess all we want, but if you have some info as to when the fan indeed was introduced, I'd be very greatful to hear about

cheers
Peter

[Chris Obermeyer]

Hi Chris,

"Cross #2 is the very rare 1937 first type, without the "fan" suspender. The swords first appear in the year of 1939 when this design was already long gone. So, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have this type of cross with swords, therefore this example is a fantasy piece."

The facts regarding the date of institution is correct, but the interptretation of these "facts" have been discussed over the years. When the fan actually first occurred has generally been presumed to be in conjunction with the introduction of the swords (1939), some believe it was even before that date. This is the 2nd cross with similar features I've seen on this forum, which at least IMO opens up for the possibility that a few "non-fanned" crosses were produced with the swords added, before the fan made it's indtroduction. We can guess all we want, but if you have some info as to when the fan indeed was introduced, I'd be very greatful to hear about

cheers
Peter

Hello Peter.

The rare 1937 Eagle Order without the "fan" suspender were made only for a few months, that is to say that even in 1937 the new design with fan suspender, or second type, was introduced. The 1939 version was identical to that called 1937 second type, or, with the new design of the "fan" suspender. Also came the version with swords. The accurate date of the 1939 version to the Eagle Order is 20 April, 1939, Reichskanzler Hitler´s birthday, according to John Angolia´s research and published on his book, "For Führer and Fatherland, Political and Civil Awards of the Third Reich, First Edition on page 36.
Since this is a well known fact, it´s hard to accept that the swords may have existed that long before on an obsolite design for two and a half years already. I cannot agree with that, therefore, in my opinion those crosses should be ragarded as fantasy pieces or just fakes. The exact date of the introduction for the 1937 second type (FAN) is not known.

Chris Obermeyer.

[Peter J.]

Hi Chris,

I've no problems with the "facts" presented, but where have you established it as a "fact" that the intrdoduction of the "fan" was made only after a few monts, due to poor endurence of the ring? To me that sounds like an assumption. There are now two threds running on this forum, DAO and DO and both share the same charactaristics in regards of how we rely on reference litterature. In the DAO-thread I tried without sucess to discuss the actual design of the "Sonderstufe", but the viewers insisted to say that the shown piece wasn't consistent with images in reference books. For crying out loud, it's a totally different cross!! The Ribbentrop cross is said to have been owned by mr Stump and I assume that's the cross imaged in Angolia' book. Besides that image I've never encountered any other, which would give us a clue to its rarity.

Here a reflection for all to contemplate. Both the DAO "Sonderstufe" and the DO had roughly the same numbers of awardees. With the above said, it's not an exaggeration to view the "Sonderstufe" rarer than the hen's teeth. Why are we then logically not stunned by the multitude of Deutscher Orders available out there? Finally, which are those reference books everybody is referring to, the ones that provide substancial info and not just a flashy llustration.

Chris, I assume you have your reasons for not posting concrete evidence and I respect that. However this is a tough crowd and I wish you all the luck.

cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

I do not have nor the smaller doubt. All the pieces shown here are original. As far as which they speak on cross of 1937, I have to say that at first, all made without swords and time later swords added to crossings made already existing, is for that reason that swords appear as back-to-back later by means of pins as they show the images that I put of this third class of 1937 of my collection pertaining to a Colonel of the Spanish blue Division, that later promoted General, bought directly to the family of the general:












It observes in this cross marking 900 in the part inferior like another detail to verify that she is authentic



The original pieces of 1937 are many that have swords, IS NOT a FANTASY PIECE, if that existed with swords. Aenobarbo, member of this forum and nº1 in collecting of the Order of the German Eagle have some with swords, to put an example

Although they are very rare to see, they also exist charges of model 1937 with swords, since these Cross was begun to make all without swords with the intention of being granted to foreign personages that, somehow, they collaborated with the Nazi regime and at the moment wars in Europe did not exist, except for a exepción: The Spanish Civil War, for that reason the manufacture of swords was decided to be added to Cross already made and to be granted to foreign military personages.

[marisca lrommel]

diario ABC de Sevilla de 30 de abril de 1939:

Berlín 29. El Führer ha ampliado, en favor de los extranjeros, la disposición relativa a la concesión de la Cruz del Mérito de la Orden del Aguila Alemana. Ha dispuesto, además, la creación de una distinción especial: la Gran Cruz de la Orden del Aguila Alemana de Honor, que será concedida, en casos muy especiales, a un número de personas que no podrá exceder de dieciséis. Tanto la cruz que va sujeta a la cinta de la Orden como la estrella que se llevará sobre el pecho, serán de oro macizo. El Ministro de Negocios Extranjeros y el Protector del Reich en Bohemia y Moravia lucirán la Cruz especial del Mérito, en ciertas ocasiones muy señaladas. El Canciller alemán ha dispuesto también que puede otorgarse la Orden del Aguila en forma de espada de honor para recompensar méritos en campaña.-D.N.B

Traduction:

ABC diary Sevilla (Spain) Press Note on 30 de abril de 1939

"Berlin 29. The Führer has extended, for foreigners, the disposition regarding the concession of the Cross of the Merit of the German Eagle Order. It has arranged, in addition, the creation of a special distinction: the Great Cross of the Order of the German Eagle of Honor, that will be granted, in very special cases, to a number of people that will not be able to exceed sixteen. As much the cross that goes holds to the ribbon of the Order as the star that will take on the chest, is of massive gold. The Minister of Foreign Businesses and the Protector of the Reich in Bohemia and Moravia will shine the special Cross of the Merit, in certain occasions very indicated. The German Chancellor has also arranged that the Order of the Eagle in the form of honor sword can be granted to compensate merits in campaign. - D.N.B "

the swords were authorized by order of the Führer for the Order of the German Eagle and swords were added to him, by means of the method before seen in the images the Decorations of model 1937….later new decorations with the swords and fan made, we know as them. The decorations with swords of 1937 existed with and without swords, being rare and little the version with swords but since they were gotten to grant to very few and 90% of these to the Spanish military who participated in the Spanish Civil War

[marisca lrommel]

Detail of on the brink of madness welded eyelashes the cross to equip with swords the same

[marisca lrommel]

This 3St German Eagle Order with swords, 1937 model, its on Aenobarbo Collection

[Chris Obermeyer]

Hi Chris,

I've no problems with the "facts" presented, but where have you established it as a "fact" that the intrdoduction of the "fan" was made only after a few monts, due to poor endurence of the ring? To me that sounds like an assumption. There are now two threds running on this forum, DAO and DO and both share the same charactaristics in regards of how we rely on reference litterature. In the DAO-thread I tried without sucess to discuss the actual design of the "Sonderstufe", but the viewers insisted to say that the shown piece wasn't consistent with images in reference books. For crying out loud, it's a totally different cross!! The Ribbentrop cross is said to have been owned by mr Stump and I assume that's the cross imaged in Angolia' book. Besides that image I've never encountered any other, which would give us a clue to its rarity.

Here a reflection for all to contemplate. Both the DAO "Sonderstufe" and the DO had roughly the same numbers of awardees. With the above said, it's not an exaggeration to view the "Sonderstufe" rarer than the hen's teeth. Why are we then logically not stunned by the multitude of Deutscher Orders available out there? Finally, which are those reference books everybody is referring to, the ones that provide substancial info and not just a flashy llustration.

Chris, I assume you have your reasons for not posting concrete evidence and I respect that. However this is a tough crowd and I wish you all the luck.

cheers
Peter

Hello Peter J.

I am very sorry I could not answer you sooner. I have been sick.
I agree with you on your comments. When I said I believe that the first type Eagle Order (without fan) was probably made for a couple of months is because the early certificate of a Eagle Order (1937 version with fan suspender) was dated July 23rd, 1937, and it was a cased First Class with Star, Verdienstkreuz mit Stern des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler. I assumed that until this date, at least, they used all Eagle Orders already made, without the fan, and in stock, so to speak.
What is regarding to this group I see many things that scares me. We have here several Eagle Orders from different periods, and they do look all the same, resultant condition I mean, same color, same style, I just don´t like that.
I just don´t see how it is possible they added those swords in a decoration with already two full years as an obsolete design. This is the kind of situation I like to say it is the paradise for the forger. Furthermore, never, ever, anything was written about this "variation" not even by Dr. Doehle, the official Chancellery Secretary for Orders and Decorations during Third Reich.
As always playing on the safe side I could never buy these.
Best Regards,
Chris Obermeyer.

[Peter J.]

Hi Chris,

Good to see you back on your feet. Now we're getting somewhere. I fully agree, a 1937 cross with swords and fan, supposedly awarded in July 1937 will definately take this topic to another dimension. This is just an assumption, but I find it plausible that the major part of DAO's where awarded before the start of WW2 (Germany was fighting most of the world and had little time for diplomacy), hence the rarity of fan-less crosses indicates an early introduction of the fan. The problem is to establish provenance (whether the cross and document actually belong together). I'm in no way suggesting that foul play is involved, but it's known to have happened before.

As for the design of the DAO's, I differ slightly in opinion, IMO there are a couple of minor differences when comparing the two types.

cheers
Peter

[marisca lrommel]

I can assure to them that my order of III 1937 class, first model, was bought the family of a Colonel of the blue Division and had the swords as you see in the photographies

[marisca lrommel]

Chris Obermeyer.
You assure that all the presented/displayed decorations are equal in design… this you surely than you say?



As far as the color I have to say that the gilded ones estan perfect, without no type of wearing down, something that I do not finish liking, but can be due to the light with which the crossings for the photo are illuminated. It observes that the bottom, behind the cross, also is of golden color